Kit build P51 mustang
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
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kit build P51
The Titan T51 is SUPPOSED to be a docile airplane and weight was a consideration. It was designed to have a wing load of 12, and a cruise of 150 on small engines. Everything I have been able to find on it says it is a super airplane, and does exactely what Williams designed it to do. The back seat looks a bit cramped though. OK, for the boss to ride in as she is pretty small. I don't know if a guy would fit very well. Granted, I have never seen one, but I find it hard to believe that it is a poorly designed fit and finish kit. Over 100 have been sold. The Legendary P51 is designed to be the Corvette version, whereas the Titan is the Camaro version. They don't compete with each other as the are not the same plane. Even if they do look alike. The Titan flies 150mph the Legendary flies 275mph. The L5151 appears to be a single seat only. Is that correct? The Thunder P51 is no longer in production from what I can tell. There are a few unfinished kits for sale, but this plane is a 300k kit and no support. That Supermarine is a beautiful plane and I bet the GM Isuzu V6 for it would wake up the Titan. Airframe would need a bit of boosting to handle it. I'd make bet it could get to the 225mph cruise range with a little wing and frame help from the factory. Now, if someone would make a 80% scale P51, you could capture the market.
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1mlt
Thanks for that, most of it I knew, some I didn't. But alaways good to hear from others to build or disband ones own thoughts.
Methinks I must venture to sheep land to see it for myself, this was mentioned by the factory boss who as I have said has been extremely prompt with replies and open with info.
Thanks for that, most of it I knew, some I didn't. But alaways good to hear from others to build or disband ones own thoughts.
Methinks I must venture to sheep land to see it for myself, this was mentioned by the factory boss who as I have said has been extremely prompt with replies and open with info.
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I've seen and sat in the Titan built by Ivan Cambell; I've flown the Tiger replica he built and I use one of his helmets. His build quality is superb.
When I was there in November, he had four or five T-51's under construction for customers. I can't remember the pricing but if I was seriously thinking of getting a warbird scale replica I would get him to build one for me. I'm quite tempted by the 90% scale Spitfire he's building - put a GM V8 in it and it should go quite well.
Funnily enough, before flying his Tiger Moth replica I thought, "why would you bother with a replica?". After flying it, and going on to fly the real thing, I'm inclined to think, "why would you want the hassle of the real thing?"
When I was there in November, he had four or five T-51's under construction for customers. I can't remember the pricing but if I was seriously thinking of getting a warbird scale replica I would get him to build one for me. I'm quite tempted by the 90% scale Spitfire he's building - put a GM V8 in it and it should go quite well.
Funnily enough, before flying his Tiger Moth replica I thought, "why would you bother with a replica?". After flying it, and going on to fly the real thing, I'm inclined to think, "why would you want the hassle of the real thing?"
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
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Titan T-51 kit price
Pricing currently in the USA is 49,900.00 US dollars, no instruments, no motor, no PSRU. What is that in Pound Sterling about 90,000? I have no idea what the conversion rates are today, just a wild stab ...
Go to the USA web site and take a look titanaircraft.com
Go to the USA web site and take a look titanaircraft.com
"Pricing currently in the USA is 49,900.00 US dollars, no instruments, no motor, no PSRU. What is that in Pound Sterling about 90,000?"
More like 25,000 Pounds Sterling!
Dr
More like 25,000 Pounds Sterling!
Dr
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T51 Mustang imported into UK,Europe by Euroaviation Ltd
The Titan T51 Mustang 75% all metal kit build aircraft is in the UK and in the imported by Titan dealers Euro Aviation Ltd.It is in the process of being built at Rochester Airport,Kent,England.
It is an all metal,2 seat fully aerobatic aircraft with Rotax 912S engine, constant speed 4 blade prop,retractable undercarriage.
It is an all metal,2 seat fully aerobatic aircraft with Rotax 912S engine, constant speed 4 blade prop,retractable undercarriage.
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A small syndicate of 'older' pilots have a T51 in progress at Ardmore, NZ. It is not an easy build and the basic kit leaves a lot of work if you want a finish and build quality anything more than basic. Originally the factory quoted 600 hours to complete; this was revised to 1600 hours a couple of years back. We are 1900 hours and counting, but we are trying to build a more maintainable, shiny version without the pop rivets.
There are some quite decent photos of the last year of build progress here :
Picasa Web Albums - Ken - NZ Warbirds T...
We are using the Rotax 912 ULS and the standard 4 bladed CS prop and have a projected basic weight of 880 lbs which will allow this to comfortably fly as a microlight under NZ rules. At 12 lbs per HP and 11 lbs per Sq Ft she should perform quite nicely once the gear is up - we shall see. Certainly the 20L / Hour fuel flow is the consolation.
The biggest concern is CofG which naturally falls too far aft - no problem if you are using the manufacturer's MAUW of 1450 Lbs but as a ML at 1200 lbs this is a waste at best. 30-40 lbs of nose ballast is not really on, so we have taken the radiators out of the dog box and put them under the engine; where there is room for a single bed anyway. This mod scored another weight bonus as it dispensed with 4 x 13ft runs of tubing and associated fluids.
Size wise she is a squeeze in the back cockpit for a 6 footer, but we have dumped the center tank and used the space for a rear seat footwell and put the rear pedals there rather than alongside the front seat. It is now quite an acceptable perch for a 6+ footer without getting terminal cramp after 15 minutes. This also allowed slightly wider and more comfy seat pans.
The scale is 75% overall with 24.5ft wingspan. This is functionally identical to the Thunder's scale. So much so that we have used the 'dog box' mold from a Thunder for our underbelly scoop as it a better scale shape than that supplied - plus ours is now a lighter shell; not having to house anything other than an air ram for cockpit ventilation.
Currently we are looking at a Christmas roll out, but we are not betting on which Christmas
There are some quite decent photos of the last year of build progress here :
Picasa Web Albums - Ken - NZ Warbirds T...
We are using the Rotax 912 ULS and the standard 4 bladed CS prop and have a projected basic weight of 880 lbs which will allow this to comfortably fly as a microlight under NZ rules. At 12 lbs per HP and 11 lbs per Sq Ft she should perform quite nicely once the gear is up - we shall see. Certainly the 20L / Hour fuel flow is the consolation.
The biggest concern is CofG which naturally falls too far aft - no problem if you are using the manufacturer's MAUW of 1450 Lbs but as a ML at 1200 lbs this is a waste at best. 30-40 lbs of nose ballast is not really on, so we have taken the radiators out of the dog box and put them under the engine; where there is room for a single bed anyway. This mod scored another weight bonus as it dispensed with 4 x 13ft runs of tubing and associated fluids.
Size wise she is a squeeze in the back cockpit for a 6 footer, but we have dumped the center tank and used the space for a rear seat footwell and put the rear pedals there rather than alongside the front seat. It is now quite an acceptable perch for a 6+ footer without getting terminal cramp after 15 minutes. This also allowed slightly wider and more comfy seat pans.
The scale is 75% overall with 24.5ft wingspan. This is functionally identical to the Thunder's scale. So much so that we have used the 'dog box' mold from a Thunder for our underbelly scoop as it a better scale shape than that supplied - plus ours is now a lighter shell; not having to house anything other than an air ram for cockpit ventilation.
Currently we are looking at a Christmas roll out, but we are not betting on which Christmas
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Mastergreen
Great photoes! Very interesting to see the build progress and the standard of the kit as is and your mods. Well done.
Were you happy with the kit condition? PM if you like
Great photoes! Very interesting to see the build progress and the standard of the kit as is and your mods. Well done.
Were you happy with the kit condition? PM if you like
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Great pictures MasterGreen and the workmanship looks second to none!
Just one question, does all the aluminium come pre-cut, or do you have to cut it yourself?
Cheers, HH.
Just one question, does all the aluminium come pre-cut, or do you have to cut it yourself?
Cheers, HH.
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HH,
if you take the standard kit sheets then all the main body panels are cut to size / shape. However we wanted overlapping flush panel joints and ordered the sheets uncut. Even with the standard kit there is a fair bit of trimming and cutting to do. A lot of this is possible with shears /snips and a decent saw, but access to a 6ft+ guillotine would be a huge advantage. For a kit like this you will need a rash of decent tools whichever route you take and either budget for them or get access to them before considering it.
With no labour or tool costs our final butcher's bill is now pretty solid at around $165K NZ. That includes the Dynon EFIS/EMS; 286 GPS; Becker radio and level 3 transponder; twin head heated pitot (for AofA on the Dynon); compulsory sat beacon; LED strobes and position lights. The spreadsheet tells me we spent 15K on avionics alone - not bad for a microlight
If you were starting now you would need to add another 20K NZ to that as the kit has inflated from US$37500 to US54K+ and the Rotax gets no cheaper either. This is not a cheap homebuilt or an easybuild. However it is a charismatic microlight / LSA that will go upside down and +6/-4 and fly GH for 20 liters / hour.
There is a lot on conjecture about cruise speed, but I am hoping for 150 kts @ 75% / 16-18 lph with the solid rivets and very clean build. We shall see.
Keep your eye on the link above. Things will happen quite quickly now. All the infrastructure / wiring & plumbing is done and just the fuselage skinning and final assembly stands between this pile of assorted bits and a flying machine ....
MG
if you take the standard kit sheets then all the main body panels are cut to size / shape. However we wanted overlapping flush panel joints and ordered the sheets uncut. Even with the standard kit there is a fair bit of trimming and cutting to do. A lot of this is possible with shears /snips and a decent saw, but access to a 6ft+ guillotine would be a huge advantage. For a kit like this you will need a rash of decent tools whichever route you take and either budget for them or get access to them before considering it.
With no labour or tool costs our final butcher's bill is now pretty solid at around $165K NZ. That includes the Dynon EFIS/EMS; 286 GPS; Becker radio and level 3 transponder; twin head heated pitot (for AofA on the Dynon); compulsory sat beacon; LED strobes and position lights. The spreadsheet tells me we spent 15K on avionics alone - not bad for a microlight
If you were starting now you would need to add another 20K NZ to that as the kit has inflated from US$37500 to US54K+ and the Rotax gets no cheaper either. This is not a cheap homebuilt or an easybuild. However it is a charismatic microlight / LSA that will go upside down and +6/-4 and fly GH for 20 liters / hour.
There is a lot on conjecture about cruise speed, but I am hoping for 150 kts @ 75% / 16-18 lph with the solid rivets and very clean build. We shall see.
Keep your eye on the link above. Things will happen quite quickly now. All the infrastructure / wiring & plumbing is done and just the fuselage skinning and final assembly stands between this pile of assorted bits and a flying machine ....
MG
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150kts might be a pipe dream...don't think the standard wing will do that....while it may LOOK like the Thunder (and 75% of the real thing) the wings are very different...would need MUCH grunt to pull a T51 to 150kts S&L me thinks!!
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Slackie,
well we shall see. The standard machine is quoted at 150MPH cruise on a Rotax 912 at 1450 lbs. I was hoping our flush solid rivets, super smooth surface, sealed control surfaces and 1200 lbs might do the conversion. I will let you know after Christmas
MG
well we shall see. The standard machine is quoted at 150MPH cruise on a Rotax 912 at 1450 lbs. I was hoping our flush solid rivets, super smooth surface, sealed control surfaces and 1200 lbs might do the conversion. I will let you know after Christmas
MG
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T51 Update - heavy going on the tailplane
The tail feathers have caused a lot of work - there was a lot to do getting the elevators properly setup and balanced, but that is now done. The fuselage skinning is now proceeding reasonably well. This one and the B787 is going to be a race to flight test I guess. But remember building one of these is a journey - not a destination. When it is actually finished we may have to fly it and I am not sure if I can watch so much work get airborne without having a little lay down....
As an aside I brought myself an Avid Speedwing to use as the syndicate tailwheel trainer. This is a very useful machine. It is more than demanding enough to be an excellent TW revision aircraft, and is cheap to run (and buy). Actually it is a little bitch to fly nicely - hence the name - the Wattle Witch.
There are some ongoing cooling problems with the new 582 setup that I have identified as a mistake in the original cooling circuit that allow the RH radiator to vapour lock on climb out. I have just ripped all the hoses off her and tomorrow she gets a new cooling setup that will have the wet stuff going around in the correct direction. It is a wonder that she ever got 204 hours in her previous life with this setup, maybe the new engine is more demanding on the cooling capacity. Anyway there is nothing too hard here and it is a nice change to work on a live one
There are some photos here with explanatory captions :
Picasa Web Albums - Ken - The Wattle Wi...
MG
As an aside I brought myself an Avid Speedwing to use as the syndicate tailwheel trainer. This is a very useful machine. It is more than demanding enough to be an excellent TW revision aircraft, and is cheap to run (and buy). Actually it is a little bitch to fly nicely - hence the name - the Wattle Witch.
There are some ongoing cooling problems with the new 582 setup that I have identified as a mistake in the original cooling circuit that allow the RH radiator to vapour lock on climb out. I have just ripped all the hoses off her and tomorrow she gets a new cooling setup that will have the wet stuff going around in the correct direction. It is a wonder that she ever got 204 hours in her previous life with this setup, maybe the new engine is more demanding on the cooling capacity. Anyway there is nothing too hard here and it is a nice change to work on a live one
There are some photos here with explanatory captions :
Picasa Web Albums - Ken - The Wattle Wi...
MG
Sprucegoose
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Thanks MG, that was quick! Please keep us updated.
Cheers,
HH.
Cheers,
HH.