YSBK: Another aircraft down but safe
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I thought the Feral FO would pounce on this one.
I too heard that a Jabiru went down today @ YSBK.
The pilot of today's flight will not have his/her employment terminated. The circumstances are different to the previous incident (provided he/she doesn't quit, as the previos pilot did). From all accounts, the pilot of the previous Jabiru was engaged in a heated discussion with the CFI/CP. My understanding is that the discussion was not centred around placing blame on the instructor for the engine failure in anyway, shape or form. It was more of a communication issue. Once again, it is my understanding that he said to his CFI/CP "you're an f****** idiot, I quit". Now from where I stand, "I quit" means the pilot quit. He was not fired.
It is my understanding that only 2 resignations have taken place post Warwick Farm incident. Two resignations does not constitute "en-mass". The two resignations were as a result of convenience. Both instructors concerned had applied to other organisations (1 applied prior to the incident), gained employment and THEN resigned from the school operating the Jabiru's. I seriously doubt they would have resigned from the school prior to securing other jobs. Had they not gained employment at the other school(s) they would not be seen to be taking the "moral high ground" that a number of people seem to think they have taken.
I bet the people from Jabiru are in more of a sweat than he is.
My sources tell me that the BE76 incident to which you refer was a mechanical issue, not pilot error and nothing that the CP/CFI could have done to prevent the incident.
I think you should let CASA do its job without offering anymore advice. CASA did not wait for the second engine failure to happen before "sticking its nose in". It was only after CASA and Jabiru inspections that their Jabiru's were allowed to fly again. So in effect CASA did bugger all.
Fair go Feral FO. You've been a member for 8 years and only 3 posts sinking the boot in on 1 thread! Maybe if you get over it and move across to the left seat you can become a Feral Captain!
I too heard that a Jabiru went down today @ YSBK.
I wonder if the pilot's employment will be terminated like the previous chap.
Pilots terminated and resigning en-mass.
The CP of this company must really be in a sweat - especially following the early demise of their BE76 two days ago in yet another incident.
My sources tell me that the BE76 incident to which you refer was a mechanical issue, not pilot error and nothing that the CP/CFI could have done to prevent the incident.
Clearly CASA should be sticking its nose in this one....
Fair go Feral FO. You've been a member for 8 years and only 3 posts sinking the boot in on 1 thread! Maybe if you get over it and move across to the left seat you can become a Feral Captain!
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From all reports it sounds like the operator is going through a rough patch, but I would argue that these aeroplanes haven't been in service long enough to feel the effects of a systemic problem in the organisation, no matter how big. Two brand new engines failing in the space of two weeks? That's unheard of. CASA need to take action on this one before someone gets killed.
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It is alleged by a rumour, even though i heard it came from an extremely reliable source...........
The cause of the first and maybe the second engine stopping was a Take Off conducted when the engine temps were already at or over the red line. Something to do with sitting on the ground for 3/4 hour in high 30 degree temps and not enough air into the engine.
Maybe that is why there was sackings walk outs or whatever.
In any case under extreme conditions etc it is always good airmanship to look after the engine, and if that means turning the thing off while sitting on the ground so be it. Taking off when the temps are in the red is not really a nice thing to do to any aircraft.
Squawk6969
The cause of the first and maybe the second engine stopping was a Take Off conducted when the engine temps were already at or over the red line. Something to do with sitting on the ground for 3/4 hour in high 30 degree temps and not enough air into the engine.
Maybe that is why there was sackings walk outs or whatever.
In any case under extreme conditions etc it is always good airmanship to look after the engine, and if that means turning the thing off while sitting on the ground so be it. Taking off when the temps are in the red is not really a nice thing to do to any aircraft.
Squawk6969
Mr 6969 (no relation to 7700),
I can indeed confirm that your alleged rumour has officially been confirmed from a trusted source.
I can't believe that any qualified flight instructor with CPL and Instructor rating (which you would have to only *assume* comes with some form of trust...) that you would sit there in 30+ degrees with an engine clearly in the red in CHT and OIL temp, then proceed to takeoff anyway??? It's not rocket science to know that once over red-line there may as well not be any oil in the engine at all in terms of lubrication and it's only a matter of a minute or two and things will go horribly wrong.
Let's hope that the instructor DID in fact get the SACK and won't ever put the life of another student at risk again!
Regards, Squawk7700.
I can indeed confirm that your alleged rumour has officially been confirmed from a trusted source.
I can't believe that any qualified flight instructor with CPL and Instructor rating (which you would have to only *assume* comes with some form of trust...) that you would sit there in 30+ degrees with an engine clearly in the red in CHT and OIL temp, then proceed to takeoff anyway??? It's not rocket science to know that once over red-line there may as well not be any oil in the engine at all in terms of lubrication and it's only a matter of a minute or two and things will go horribly wrong.
Let's hope that the instructor DID in fact get the SACK and won't ever put the life of another student at risk again!
Regards, Squawk7700.
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avi8r
Lets get the facts right, shall we..............so explain all the facts so the good folk out there can understand them then. Exactly what did the folk at Jabiru have to say about the reason for failure.
As for slagging off at the instructors concerned, that was not me, and nor am I related to S7700 either, so my comment about "Taking off when the temps are in the red is not really a nice thing to do to any aircraft. " is still relevant until such time you can prove that an over temp engine at takeoff was not the cause. Unless the gauges were completely inaccurate, you have to at least question the whole thing.
Modern day Jabiru and most other aircraft engines dont normally fail that easily, I know it can and does happen, but its very rare. The facts as explained to me where quite plausible.
Besides 45 minutes or something similar at YSBK on a stinking hot day would drive anyone over the edge!
SQUAWK6969
Lets get the facts right, shall we..............so explain all the facts so the good folk out there can understand them then. Exactly what did the folk at Jabiru have to say about the reason for failure.
As for slagging off at the instructors concerned, that was not me, and nor am I related to S7700 either, so my comment about "Taking off when the temps are in the red is not really a nice thing to do to any aircraft. " is still relevant until such time you can prove that an over temp engine at takeoff was not the cause. Unless the gauges were completely inaccurate, you have to at least question the whole thing.
Modern day Jabiru and most other aircraft engines dont normally fail that easily, I know it can and does happen, but its very rare. The facts as explained to me where quite plausible.
Besides 45 minutes or something similar at YSBK on a stinking hot day would drive anyone over the edge!
SQUAWK6969
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Avi8r
IF Jabiru are making such changes wouldn't it be a sensible thing to make the cause known so other operators can avoid it?
The question is, if this was not a known issue at Jabiru, then what was this particular organisation doing as part of its SOP that was different to all other operators?
Not taking sides here, but a little more information would be useful to explain your position.
IF Jabiru are making such changes wouldn't it be a sensible thing to make the cause known so other operators can avoid it?
The question is, if this was not a known issue at Jabiru, then what was this particular organisation doing as part of its SOP that was different to all other operators?
Not taking sides here, but a little more information would be useful to explain your position.
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avi8r
Guilty till proven innocent? Everyone else here operates that way.......so whats your point
Being serious now, the engine was either too hot or it was not. Now maybe there are some modifications to cooling ducts or whatever, and POH's etc to make them more "pilot proof" (was tempting to say idiot proof, but in light of heated debate that may be taken in the wrong vain), so all that being said, of the thousands of others flying out there why these two?
You know plenty of other engine types have been cooked over the years too, so while I am not wanting to slag the pilots concerned, engines that are only a month or two old dont stop that readily! So there must be more to the story I think, and it all can not be blamed on the engines.
SQ6969
Guilty till proven innocent? Everyone else here operates that way.......so whats your point
Being serious now, the engine was either too hot or it was not. Now maybe there are some modifications to cooling ducts or whatever, and POH's etc to make them more "pilot proof" (was tempting to say idiot proof, but in light of heated debate that may be taken in the wrong vain), so all that being said, of the thousands of others flying out there why these two?
You know plenty of other engine types have been cooked over the years too, so while I am not wanting to slag the pilots concerned, engines that are only a month or two old dont stop that readily! So there must be more to the story I think, and it all can not be blamed on the engines.
SQ6969
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Keep in mind that the majority of these Jabiru engines are being operated privately on the RAA or other equivalent international registers. Any failures that have occured in the past won't necessarily be known to us.
Additionally, the Jabiru 160 hasn't been used extensively in this environment before. The organisation concerned does a lot of hours with quick breaks between flights and often a 1-2km taxi to/from the runway. In good weather, it was a rare sight to see all their Jabirus on the ground at one time and this type of heavy use and longer taxi times is not what the aeroplanes were designed for. The reports of 45 minute taxis above are probably fairly exaggerated, but even a difference of 10 minutes ground time over 6 flights a day, quickly adds up to a lot of hours spent with minimal engine cooling over a period of months.
It is important to note that this is not the result of mishandling by the pilots/instructors - quite the opposite. The aeroplanes are used for ab initio flight training. Rolling runups, rushed checklists and fast taxiing would be totally unsafe. If that is what's required to avoid engine problems, the aeroplane needs to be redesigned before it is used again in that environment.
Interestingly, that is exactly what's happening.
As for taking off with gauges indicating over the red-line, that really doesn't sound very likely. I know enough about the organisation to know their pilots are fairly intolerant of unserviceabilities, and out of unfamiliarity with the Jabirus, were reluctant to fly them even when the gauges were green, let alone with any indication of a problem. Sounds like the 'alleged rumour' has grown from a temperature problem (fact) to pilots taking off with known unserviceabilities (fiction).
In the spirit of talking about the facts, does anybody know if the two CHT probes on these engines are on the back cylinders or the front?
Additionally, the Jabiru 160 hasn't been used extensively in this environment before. The organisation concerned does a lot of hours with quick breaks between flights and often a 1-2km taxi to/from the runway. In good weather, it was a rare sight to see all their Jabirus on the ground at one time and this type of heavy use and longer taxi times is not what the aeroplanes were designed for. The reports of 45 minute taxis above are probably fairly exaggerated, but even a difference of 10 minutes ground time over 6 flights a day, quickly adds up to a lot of hours spent with minimal engine cooling over a period of months.
It is important to note that this is not the result of mishandling by the pilots/instructors - quite the opposite. The aeroplanes are used for ab initio flight training. Rolling runups, rushed checklists and fast taxiing would be totally unsafe. If that is what's required to avoid engine problems, the aeroplane needs to be redesigned before it is used again in that environment.
Interestingly, that is exactly what's happening.
As for taking off with gauges indicating over the red-line, that really doesn't sound very likely. I know enough about the organisation to know their pilots are fairly intolerant of unserviceabilities, and out of unfamiliarity with the Jabirus, were reluctant to fly them even when the gauges were green, let alone with any indication of a problem. Sounds like the 'alleged rumour' has grown from a temperature problem (fact) to pilots taking off with known unserviceabilities (fiction).
In the spirit of talking about the facts, does anybody know if the two CHT probes on these engines are on the back cylinders or the front?
Mr Avi8tor, this type of problem in Jabiru's is *usually* caused by overheating. I can't see how you can think anything else.
Is it not a striking coincidence that we were experiencing high temperatures at the time? Is it possible that the aircraft did taxi for some 40+ minutes? If so, then yes, I can absolutely confirm that the aircraft was overheating. I know this, because all Jabiru's will overheat in those conditions, unless the engine was shut off.
There are literally hundreds of these aircraft and engines operating all over the world and when mis-treated this happens. They are manufactured to exact standards by an engine plant that cost many millions of dollars. They are absolutely identical and Jabiru are shipping out 24 aircraft and 85 engines a month!
The latest J160 that left the factory on Friday last week is EXACTLY the same as the ones that left around a year ago (I inspected it personally). Please tell me exactly what changes have been made to the engine that you speak of?
If you want to know why the engine failed, call Jabiru yourself and see what you find out. I'm tipping it's not a manufacturing defect! Here's the number 07 4155 2811.
Make the call, get your facts straight and post again tomorrow.
Is it not a striking coincidence that we were experiencing high temperatures at the time? Is it possible that the aircraft did taxi for some 40+ minutes? If so, then yes, I can absolutely confirm that the aircraft was overheating. I know this, because all Jabiru's will overheat in those conditions, unless the engine was shut off.
There are literally hundreds of these aircraft and engines operating all over the world and when mis-treated this happens. They are manufactured to exact standards by an engine plant that cost many millions of dollars. They are absolutely identical and Jabiru are shipping out 24 aircraft and 85 engines a month!
The latest J160 that left the factory on Friday last week is EXACTLY the same as the ones that left around a year ago (I inspected it personally). Please tell me exactly what changes have been made to the engine that you speak of?
If you want to know why the engine failed, call Jabiru yourself and see what you find out. I'm tipping it's not a manufacturing defect! Here's the number 07 4155 2811.
Make the call, get your facts straight and post again tomorrow.
das Uber Soldat, to answer your post that you have since deleted:
"He didn't taxi for 45 minutes. Infact, who would ever taxi for 45 minutes at bankstown? I would put a max time of 0.2, 12 minutes. You're almost always out of ysbk and well into the training area within 0.2 or 0.3."
R U there on the busy days? I've waited for 5-6+ aircraft in front of me lining up on the odd occasion and I've only been in there half a dozen times on my way though from Melbourne.
"He didn't taxi for 45 minutes. Infact, who would ever taxi for 45 minutes at bankstown? I would put a max time of 0.2, 12 minutes. You're almost always out of ysbk and well into the training area within 0.2 or 0.3."
R U there on the busy days? I've waited for 5-6+ aircraft in front of me lining up on the odd occasion and I've only been in there half a dozen times on my way though from Melbourne.
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If the temps were in the green like everyone (1 poster) is saying, then the problems that I heard resulted would be extremely rare and for it to happen on a similar aircraft within a week, whilst operating in normal temperatures would be an absolute rarity. That being said the failure on the day doesn't necessarily as a result of high temperatures on that particular day; the damage could have already been done. Even if it did get overheated, there's no guarantee that it would cease at that time.
I suspect at some stage, possibly in the very high recent temperatures that the aircraft has been operated beyond its' documented operating limitations (mind you, one such limitation is 39 degrees).
Keeping a good eye on temperatures is always a good idea and it's unlikely that it will be documented in the POH that the aircraft will overheat in certain conditions. It's not just limited to Jab's either; I have had the odd Cirrus SR20 overheating on me on certain days.
I suspect at some stage, possibly in the very high recent temperatures that the aircraft has been operated beyond its' documented operating limitations (mind you, one such limitation is 39 degrees).
Keeping a good eye on temperatures is always a good idea and it's unlikely that it will be documented in the POH that the aircraft will overheat in certain conditions. It's not just limited to Jab's either; I have had the odd Cirrus SR20 overheating on me on certain days.
Thread Starter
I'm there every day. The school is right next to the runup bays, and it wasn't that busy that day. I've never had to wait 45 mins, maybe 30 mins at the most. The only time you might have to wait 45 mins is if there are circuit delays on the southern runway, and even then you just shutdown and tower will give you a light.
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I can indeed confirm that your alleged rumour has officially been confirmed from a trusted source.
Honestly I cannot believe the crap I have read in the last page of this thread. Im curious SQ7700, who is this trusted source - and did they really confirm that the pilots have been operating outside of the aircraft's limitations? Because I know the operator and its pilots - and know that extreme caution has always been taken (especially being new to the fleet) and that the aircraft have not been operating outside of aircraft engine limitations and that they were not operated in high temperatures outside of the flight manual. Whether a manufacturing problem or not, to blame the pilots for these failures, without a clue as to how the aircraft were being operated is 
. You have made it quite clear that you know the J160 well, and from sounds of things you are associated with Jabiru, if so then you would know that the initial findings of the first failure have not indicated poor handling. What caused these failures - I have no idea, but it would be nice to get the answers before people go and point a desperate finger at the pilots.
Perhaps the Jabs were never meant to be operated in a busy professional flight training organisation, after all weren't they designed for recreational flying?
Anyway, safe flying!
Capt Mo
I spoke to the Jabiru engine department. You can't get more trusted than that.
07 4155 2811 will get you there directly and you can call for yourself if you wish.
07 4155 2811 will get you there directly and you can call for yourself if you wish.