Tree Fife Niner
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Fully agree with the importance of 'niner'.
Been hearing a few excessive readbacks lately (p'raps known to get a bit verbose myself, though I try not to) - the 'line up behind' one gets them.
I know ATC are supposed to say the word 'behind' twice, but there's a bit of readback creep sometimes and it gets read back twice as well.
I'd go back to saying the callsign first any day, not necessary to change it, I thought, and it just feels unnatural (shows I'm getting older I s'pose).
Been hearing a few excessive readbacks lately (p'raps known to get a bit verbose myself, though I try not to) - the 'line up behind' one gets them.
I know ATC are supposed to say the word 'behind' twice, but there's a bit of readback creep sometimes and it gets read back twice as well.
I'd go back to saying the callsign first any day, not necessary to change it, I thought, and it just feels unnatural (shows I'm getting older I s'pose).
Andrew,
AIP GEN 3.4-13 para 4.5.3:
ATS: "(Aircraft call sign) behind A340 on short final line up RWY xx behind."
You: "Behind the A340 lining up RWY xx (aircraft call sign)."
GEN 3.4 is devoted to comms and phraseologies worth a look as you might find it interesting like I.
"Over and out!"
AIP GEN 3.4-13 para 4.5.3:
ATS: "(Aircraft call sign) behind A340 on short final line up RWY xx behind."
You: "Behind the A340 lining up RWY xx (aircraft call sign)."
GEN 3.4 is devoted to comms and phraseologies worth a look as you might find it interesting like I.
"Over and out!"
Join Date: Oct 2004
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After 20+ years of flying I still have to read Gen 3.4 to make sure my calls are correct. (The result of some serious 'beasting' by instructors who held a philosophy that the only thing the majority people really get to judge your professionalism on is the standard of your calls.)
This discussion tempted me to dive right back into AIP for some more refresher reading. I agree completely with the need to follow the book so that there is no misunderstanding between the cockpit and ATC. Interestingly, the examples given on Gen 3.4-15 and 16 contradict the proscription given that:
The examples contain few instances of the use of "9" and when they do they appear to be incorrect.
Or is there an implied requirement to read the printed numbers in these examples phonetically?
This discussion tempted me to dive right back into AIP for some more refresher reading. I agree completely with the need to follow the book so that there is no misunderstanding between the cockpit and ATC. Interestingly, the examples given on Gen 3.4-15 and 16 contradict the proscription given that:
Radiotelephony pronunciation of numbers shall be in the phonetic
form as follows...9 NIN er
form as follows...9 NIN er
Altimeter Setting...29.95 “TWO NINE DECIMAL NINE FIVE”
Time...0920 UTC “ZERO NINE TWO ZERO ZULU”
Time...0920 UTC “ZERO NINE TWO ZERO ZULU”
Join Date: Oct 2004
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AIP Gen 3.4, 4.13.1
Only ever used together in poorly made movies...
OVER My transmission is ended and I expect a response from you (not normally used in VHF communication).
OUT My transmission is ended and I expect no response from you (not normally used in VHFcommunication).
OUT My transmission is ended and I expect no response from you (not normally used in VHFcommunication).
"through my training my instructors always told me for the line up behind calls to read that back in full"
The power of the instructors' word - it's hard to avoid perpetuating furphies, and I'd be as guilty as anyone here, but a good look through the AIP on points of order sometimes coughs up a few surprises!
Hard to keep track of all this stuff, though, and the 'line up behind' thing being read back once only stuck in my mind because there was a special notice sent around by CASA when it came in, as I remember.
The power of the instructors' word - it's hard to avoid perpetuating furphies, and I'd be as guilty as anyone here, but a good look through the AIP on points of order sometimes coughs up a few surprises!
Hard to keep track of all this stuff, though, and the 'line up behind' thing being read back once only stuck in my mind because there was a special notice sent around by CASA when it came in, as I remember.
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I was hammering the importance of saying only what's necessary on the radio to my student today. I had to laugh when upon leaving CTA, the centre controller took a good 30 seconds to tell us to squawk 1200 and go away - at least 15 of which were spent saying "arrrrrrr"!
Standard phraseology makes it easier for all of us. Despite having prepared him fairly thoroughly, my student, who was from overseas, just looked at me blankly after the totally non-standard phraseology in that instance.
He was expecting something like "ABC, leaving controlled airspace, radar and control services terminated squawk 1200, frequency change approved"
What he got was complex enough to confuse the best of us!
Standard phraseology makes it easier for all of us. Despite having prepared him fairly thoroughly, my student, who was from overseas, just looked at me blankly after the totally non-standard phraseology in that instance.
He was expecting something like "ABC, leaving controlled airspace, radar and control services terminated squawk 1200, frequency change approved"
What he got was complex enough to confuse the best of us!
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GearOff,
Unfortunately the nonsense comes from both ends of the line. We work with a guy that we've named "words twice", but we're slowly beating him out of it. Always sounds worse when its a controller though 'coz it dominates the airwaves.
Cheers,
R.S.
Unfortunately the nonsense comes from both ends of the line. We work with a guy that we've named "words twice", but we're slowly beating him out of it. Always sounds worse when its a controller though 'coz it dominates the airwaves.
Cheers,
R.S.
Seasonally Adjusted
"ABC, leaving controlled airspace, radar and control services terminated squawk 1200, frequency change approved"
Anyone know the equivalent section in Jepps for Gen 3.4?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Short Answer - when ADS-B was commissioned.
Techincally it is not even Identificatiion Services Terminated but Identification Terminated - even though you are still Identified - makes sense doesn't it?! [EDIT: I see that is what you wrote TQ, but have heard the services part included as well]
Many who have to say this mouthful protested when we found out about it (no consultation that I recall), but were basically dismissed.
So if you hear Identification Terminated when leaving a control step, chances are you are still Identified - you are just not getting a service unless you request it (i.e. RIS).
(Call me stupid - but I think if a pilot hears Identification Terminated they probably think they are no longer Radar Identified)
Techincally it is not even Identificatiion Services Terminated but Identification Terminated - even though you are still Identified - makes sense doesn't it?! [EDIT: I see that is what you wrote TQ, but have heard the services part included as well]
Many who have to say this mouthful protested when we found out about it (no consultation that I recall), but were basically dismissed.
So if you hear Identification Terminated when leaving a control step, chances are you are still Identified - you are just not getting a service unless you request it (i.e. RIS).
(Call me stupid - but I think if a pilot hears Identification Terminated they probably think they are no longer Radar Identified)
Last edited by Shitsu_Tonka; 3rd Sep 2006 at 01:57.
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Me hearties!!!
