Pilot Union - what do they do for the Industry
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Pilot Union - what do they do for the Industry
It is quite interesting watching the decline of our pay and conditions, as the employers are quite aware, we do not stick together, that will never change.
Airline Pilots are the largest demographic of members and now it's happening to them as well.
If we want change, we should start lobbying the Federal Government / local members to put inplace some sort of proper and appropriate safety net for our profession.
Unions / Federations representing Pilots have proven over and over they are incapable of any major win and unwilling to put their necks on the line and do some real good.
Apparently one organisation, a federation infact was called on by one of its financial members to represent them in the resolution of a long running dispute with their employer, the organisations Executive Officer and Financial Controller decreed that it was financially unviable for them to represent this member ( or words to that effect ).
Talk about selective representation, luckily my membership is not current and neither shall it be in the future.
To the organisation involved, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Airline Pilots are the largest demographic of members and now it's happening to them as well.
If we want change, we should start lobbying the Federal Government / local members to put inplace some sort of proper and appropriate safety net for our profession.
Unions / Federations representing Pilots have proven over and over they are incapable of any major win and unwilling to put their necks on the line and do some real good.
Apparently one organisation, a federation infact was called on by one of its financial members to represent them in the resolution of a long running dispute with their employer, the organisations Executive Officer and Financial Controller decreed that it was financially unviable for them to represent this member ( or words to that effect ).
Talk about selective representation, luckily my membership is not current and neither shall it be in the future.
To the organisation involved, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Perhaps the problem is not the union per se but the members of the union.
Your very first sentence hits the nail on the head.
What/who is the union? If you can answer this question then you have almost answered your question.
Like any democracy you get what you vote for. As most people are apathetic they probably don't vote and then moan about the result.
A strong union has a strong members who stick together, and from those strong members you get strong leaders.
It is quite interesting watching the decline of our pay and conditions, as the employers are quite aware, we do not stick together, that will never change.
What/who is the union? If you can answer this question then you have almost answered your question.
Like any democracy you get what you vote for. As most people are apathetic they probably don't vote and then moan about the result.
A strong union has a strong members who stick together, and from those strong members you get strong leaders.
I think Stink Finger is referring to the AFAP.
I remember reading something about this a while ago, anyone with more details.?
As for membership/representation, TWU are pretty good representing people but they don't have the technical knowledge of the aviation industry
How many out there with TWU (M@cair, anybody else?)
I remember reading something about this a while ago, anyone with more details.?
As for membership/representation, TWU are pretty good representing people but they don't have the technical knowledge of the aviation industry
How many out there with TWU (M@cair, anybody else?)
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27/09 how true your words are. The members are the Union. If you have a strong, supportive, team orientated, cohesive group of members who back their leadership group, you have a strong Union.
The biggest whingeing, backstabbing Union "members" are the ones that never come to a union meeting, and if they do,never voice an opinion at union meetings, never offer their services in an administrative role for the Union and always make the following statements:
"What's the Union doing about...."
"Why hasn't the union..............."
"What a waste of money being in this union because........."
"What does the union do for the industry?"
Members make the Union and when I hear people saying the union should be ashamed of themselves I think to myself, that union must have a pretty piss poor membership and if your not a member of that union, you DON'T have the right to an opinion !
The biggest whingeing, backstabbing Union "members" are the ones that never come to a union meeting, and if they do,never voice an opinion at union meetings, never offer their services in an administrative role for the Union and always make the following statements:
"What's the Union doing about...."
"Why hasn't the union..............."
"What a waste of money being in this union because........."
"What does the union do for the industry?"
Members make the Union and when I hear people saying the union should be ashamed of themselves I think to myself, that union must have a pretty piss poor membership and if your not a member of that union, you DON'T have the right to an opinion !
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Some very valid points; what does it say about a union when it will not represent any/all of it's financial members, under any and all circumstances, quite simply they are not for the members.
So the original question still stand, what is it that we pay our money for ?
I was up untill recently a member, for many years, in my opinion a complete waste of money. When they were needed they sat on their hands, and now to another poor soul they are doing the same.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, just because you may not agree with what they are saying, does not invalidate the content of their statement.
A union is most definately as strong as their members, no argument, but if the body does not rise to the challenge ( any and all challenges for members ) when called on, they should be ashamed of themselves.
So for you as a current member, under what circumstances do you think it is acceptable for the Union not to come to your assistance when request to rectify/mediate a workplace problem ?, please be specific ?.
So the original question still stand, what is it that we pay our money for ?
I was up untill recently a member, for many years, in my opinion a complete waste of money. When they were needed they sat on their hands, and now to another poor soul they are doing the same.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, just because you may not agree with what they are saying, does not invalidate the content of their statement.
A union is most definately as strong as their members, no argument, but if the body does not rise to the challenge ( any and all challenges for members ) when called on, they should be ashamed of themselves.
So for you as a current member, under what circumstances do you think it is acceptable for the Union not to come to your assistance when request to rectify/mediate a workplace problem ?, please be specific ?.
Last edited by Stink Finger; 6th Jul 2006 at 03:09.
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JACK.
Theleast I would expect after an investment in the union/federation in excess of a grand a year plus for a number of years would be some advice on the best way to tackle the employer.
I believe said member has been a paid up disciple for 20 odd years.
Good on you LC & SL.
My latest renewal notice is now in the bin
What`s APESMA`s number again?
Theleast I would expect after an investment in the union/federation in excess of a grand a year plus for a number of years would be some advice on the best way to tackle the employer.
I believe said member has been a paid up disciple for 20 odd years.
Good on you LC & SL.
My latest renewal notice is now in the bin
What`s APESMA`s number again?
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I must agree with "stink finger".
I asked for assistance some time ago during EBA nego., was told we weren't a big enough group to represent, then advised to join another union to take up our cause.
In my opinion the Award and the "Union" are a joke. Fortunately I am in a position were I am not paid as per the award. I pity the poor souls who are.
Anyone have any info. out there regarding the TWU ?
I asked for assistance some time ago during EBA nego., was told we weren't a big enough group to represent, then advised to join another union to take up our cause.
In my opinion the Award and the "Union" are a joke. Fortunately I am in a position were I am not paid as per the award. I pity the poor souls who are.
Anyone have any info. out there regarding the TWU ?
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This latest individual that is not being represented by the federation wouldn't be "Danny Deckchair" from a previous contentous post involving malfeasance and bullying in the workplace would it ?.
He's a great bloke and i hope he gets all the support he needs.
This guy has been a AFAP member for years, and to date one of their greatest advocates, hopefully this can't be true ?.
LC, care to comment ?.
He's a great bloke and i hope he gets all the support he needs.
This guy has been a AFAP member for years, and to date one of their greatest advocates, hopefully this can't be true ?.
LC, care to comment ?.
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Okay I will bite if only to put some facts in to play. And yes I am fully aware that it is a rumour site which the majority of the tripe above is.
I also note that I get a mention when the fact is I have not been involved in the case we believe is being referred to.
If it is that particular case then it is still ongoing and the member involved is upset because the decision taken by the employer to offer a confidential package on separation does not address their specific agenda.
Fact if a member is unhappy with the level of representation they can take it to the finance committee which is made up entirely by elected pilots. Their decision will take into account the views of the member and the advice on likely outcomes and the staff of the organisation will be directed accordingly. With great respect to all I am sure that you as a member would like us to spend your money wisely.
I have said it previously and I will again emphasise that not every case can be won and I understand that the individual has an emotional investment in the outcome. However, the organisation has rules and is run by elected pilots (pilots who actually invest time looking after the fellow members not sniping anonymously) who are answerable to the membership each year. I trust the ‘expert’ commentators have nominated as the elections are on now. But then again you have to be a member to be involved.
The other question that gets raised regularly is TWU we have never said to my knowledge to any member go join another union but what we will not do is get into a contest situation where two unions pay lawyers and waste members money trying to outdo each other. I am proud of our record looking after pilots not just in agreements but in incident/accident and cover for losing your professional qualification. If you want to be a truckie or a bus driver then the TWU is definitely for you and no one can stop you. Please do not try and come back later and ask for help when it goes the wrong way as it has in Horizon, Flightwest, RFDS, etc…
As always I am prepared to put my name to these posts and not shy away from answering ill informed comments. I trust the critics will start owning up to their real agenda.
In respect to the last post I do not think so.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
I also note that I get a mention when the fact is I have not been involved in the case we believe is being referred to.
If it is that particular case then it is still ongoing and the member involved is upset because the decision taken by the employer to offer a confidential package on separation does not address their specific agenda.
Fact if a member is unhappy with the level of representation they can take it to the finance committee which is made up entirely by elected pilots. Their decision will take into account the views of the member and the advice on likely outcomes and the staff of the organisation will be directed accordingly. With great respect to all I am sure that you as a member would like us to spend your money wisely.
I have said it previously and I will again emphasise that not every case can be won and I understand that the individual has an emotional investment in the outcome. However, the organisation has rules and is run by elected pilots (pilots who actually invest time looking after the fellow members not sniping anonymously) who are answerable to the membership each year. I trust the ‘expert’ commentators have nominated as the elections are on now. But then again you have to be a member to be involved.
The other question that gets raised regularly is TWU we have never said to my knowledge to any member go join another union but what we will not do is get into a contest situation where two unions pay lawyers and waste members money trying to outdo each other. I am proud of our record looking after pilots not just in agreements but in incident/accident and cover for losing your professional qualification. If you want to be a truckie or a bus driver then the TWU is definitely for you and no one can stop you. Please do not try and come back later and ask for help when it goes the wrong way as it has in Horizon, Flightwest, RFDS, etc…
As always I am prepared to put my name to these posts and not shy away from answering ill informed comments. I trust the critics will start owning up to their real agenda.
In respect to the last post I do not think so.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
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Welcome Lawrie,
There are no hidden agenda's here, why would we need them ?. I will not take that personally Lawrie, in my dealings with you i have found you to be a honest and reasonable person.
It is Danny Deck Chair we are referring to.
We are in absolute agreement when you say "you can't win them all", but not step up to the plate, that is another story.
I do not wish to buy into which union is better, personally i've believe that proof is in the product, there appears to be a number of dissatified customers.
Stinky was dissatisfied some time ago, so i voted with my feet.
There are no hidden agenda's here, why would we need them ?. I will not take that personally Lawrie, in my dealings with you i have found you to be a honest and reasonable person.
It is Danny Deck Chair we are referring to.
We are in absolute agreement when you say "you can't win them all", but not step up to the plate, that is another story.
I do not wish to buy into which union is better, personally i've believe that proof is in the product, there appears to be a number of dissatified customers.
Stinky was dissatisfied some time ago, so i voted with my feet.
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Alright then for the record the case I thought we were talking about although connected was not the same. We have stepped up to the plate on several occassions for 'Danny' if it is the same person we are talking about. My position on his case is that I have offered on several occasions to pursue his matter in several different ways however when I have tried to narrow it down to the direct impact on the individual the response is to attack others rather than focus on the issues. The 'others' being members of the organisation makes it difficult for me and I have given the individual advice on how to proceed under the rules of the organisation. Advice that has been studiously avoided.
I have complied with the requests made by the said member on every occasion to the extent of correspondence/faxes/information being totally restricted to me. there is little else I can do until the member states quite clearly the outcome sought and the processes that I have explained either AIRC(no longer practical), AAT and or civil jurisdiction are decided upon. This has been through the individual's lawyers as well.
At the end of the day it appears that this is one of those ones I cannot win no matter what I have put forward. Thank you for the acknowledgement SF if there is one thing that is necessary in IR it is credibility. Many don't like listening when I cannot deliver the outcome sought but at least I will have a go and also I am happy to stand up for my actions.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
I have complied with the requests made by the said member on every occasion to the extent of correspondence/faxes/information being totally restricted to me. there is little else I can do until the member states quite clearly the outcome sought and the processes that I have explained either AIRC(no longer practical), AAT and or civil jurisdiction are decided upon. This has been through the individual's lawyers as well.
At the end of the day it appears that this is one of those ones I cannot win no matter what I have put forward. Thank you for the acknowledgement SF if there is one thing that is necessary in IR it is credibility. Many don't like listening when I cannot deliver the outcome sought but at least I will have a go and also I am happy to stand up for my actions.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
I have found AFAP to be supportive, informative and responsive. At all times.
The LOL scheme is fantastic, and the only realistic way of me protecting my family becuase of the casual and contract work I do.
With all the vitriol expressed above it would be nice to air the specific grieviances against the responses of LC so that both sides of the arguement can be aired. It is a bit hard to defend against all encompassing sledges that contain accusations like not stepping "up to the plate" and then fail to produce any substantiation.
Stinky, I have admired some of your past work here on the prune, but you need some specifics to run with this one. If it is "confidential" then perhaps a call through to LC would solve it first?
Just a suggestion.
The LOL scheme is fantastic, and the only realistic way of me protecting my family becuase of the casual and contract work I do.
With all the vitriol expressed above it would be nice to air the specific grieviances against the responses of LC so that both sides of the arguement can be aired. It is a bit hard to defend against all encompassing sledges that contain accusations like not stepping "up to the plate" and then fail to produce any substantiation.
Stinky, I have admired some of your past work here on the prune, but you need some specifics to run with this one. If it is "confidential" then perhaps a call through to LC would solve it first?
Just a suggestion.
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Welcome Helmet Fire,
Vitriol: extreme bitterness and hatred toward somebody or something, or an expression of this feeling in speech or writing.
I do not see this as Vitriol, the topic is clear, there are a number of Unions within Aviation, many many financial members and from the outside it really does not look as though the membership money appears to be terribly productive.
Airing disapproval is reasonable, there is no haterd here.
With regards to Danny, if he decides to add more he can, it would be inappropriate to add personal content to this post ( read "confidential" ), it saddens me to see him not being supported to the full extent of possibility.
This topic was not started to air specifics about grievances ( hang out dirty laundry ).
Do we need to have a good look at ourselves, yes.
In many states there are still no aviation awards inplace that act as a safety net for a majority of Pilots ( yes, there is a generic award that covers minimum award wages {in effect labourers}, none of the aviation unions can claim that as their victory, perhaps the CFMEU or TWU could ).
Where has our money gone ?.
Vitriol: extreme bitterness and hatred toward somebody or something, or an expression of this feeling in speech or writing.
I do not see this as Vitriol, the topic is clear, there are a number of Unions within Aviation, many many financial members and from the outside it really does not look as though the membership money appears to be terribly productive.
Airing disapproval is reasonable, there is no haterd here.
With regards to Danny, if he decides to add more he can, it would be inappropriate to add personal content to this post ( read "confidential" ), it saddens me to see him not being supported to the full extent of possibility.
This topic was not started to air specifics about grievances ( hang out dirty laundry ).
Do we need to have a good look at ourselves, yes.
In many states there are still no aviation awards inplace that act as a safety net for a majority of Pilots ( yes, there is a generic award that covers minimum award wages {in effect labourers}, none of the aviation unions can claim that as their victory, perhaps the CFMEU or TWU could ).
Where has our money gone ?.
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SF I am not asserting any compliant from my end other than there are a few disgruntled who peddle the myth about the TWU as being a saviour to pilots when the opposite is true. As an example
Just ask any of the Skywest Avaition pilots who had their rights removed despite a judgement in their favour (Federal Court) when coastwatch contract was lost. The then Skywest Airline group thumbed their noses and jumped into bed with TWU and the Company to protect themselves from those who had a right under the Award. Sure we recieved bypass but lost jobs accordingly. There are more examples around.
In respect to safety nets the facts are these in the Federal system the parent awards were the safety nets. In NT and VIC we have common rule in place based upon those Awards. In the other states they have a general Award which was legislated by their respective Governments and has no relation to any classification/job. The pilots have always been Federally registered 1947-1959 and 1986-ongoing. The in between period related to a different period and we also came under the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal in the period 1980-1986. The new laws are designed to remove all the State tribunals and Awards under corporations power in the constitution which if successful make it all irrevelant in any case.
Your last point is an interesting one as a former member you would well know that we send a copy of the financial report to every member as required by law and we post it up on our web site. The Finance committee is made up of elected pilots in the principal officers role as well as three trustees all of who I am sure would be happy to answer a member's question or concern. I do not believe you can be more transparent than that.
Lawrie Cox
Manager-Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Just ask any of the Skywest Avaition pilots who had their rights removed despite a judgement in their favour (Federal Court) when coastwatch contract was lost. The then Skywest Airline group thumbed their noses and jumped into bed with TWU and the Company to protect themselves from those who had a right under the Award. Sure we recieved bypass but lost jobs accordingly. There are more examples around.
In respect to safety nets the facts are these in the Federal system the parent awards were the safety nets. In NT and VIC we have common rule in place based upon those Awards. In the other states they have a general Award which was legislated by their respective Governments and has no relation to any classification/job. The pilots have always been Federally registered 1947-1959 and 1986-ongoing. The in between period related to a different period and we also came under the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal in the period 1980-1986. The new laws are designed to remove all the State tribunals and Awards under corporations power in the constitution which if successful make it all irrevelant in any case.
Your last point is an interesting one as a former member you would well know that we send a copy of the financial report to every member as required by law and we post it up on our web site. The Finance committee is made up of elected pilots in the principal officers role as well as three trustees all of who I am sure would be happy to answer a member's question or concern. I do not believe you can be more transparent than that.
Lawrie Cox
Manager-Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Statement of fact:
History shows that pilots are prostitutes and will sell themselves off for their own gain without considering the after effects to those pilots that may follow in their paths for legitimate reasons. This then lessens the bargaining powers of the following pilots and hands the power to the employer. In the past this has not happened because the union was there to protect and intervened at the pilot (body) request for protection. Now however for whatever reason (89' get over it!) you the pilot body must stand up for your beliefs. There have been so may posts about pilot conditions and blaming "the union" but ourselves. Wake up guys, the companies have it over us because of the lack of cohesiveness between pilots. Be "one" and not sell yourselves off as the girls (and guys) do in King Cross. Do not blame the "union" because "you" as a member with the rest are the "union".
Mr Cox is your voice, use him do not silence him.
oah.
History shows that pilots are prostitutes and will sell themselves off for their own gain without considering the after effects to those pilots that may follow in their paths for legitimate reasons. This then lessens the bargaining powers of the following pilots and hands the power to the employer. In the past this has not happened because the union was there to protect and intervened at the pilot (body) request for protection. Now however for whatever reason (89' get over it!) you the pilot body must stand up for your beliefs. There have been so may posts about pilot conditions and blaming "the union" but ourselves. Wake up guys, the companies have it over us because of the lack of cohesiveness between pilots. Be "one" and not sell yourselves off as the girls (and guys) do in King Cross. Do not blame the "union" because "you" as a member with the rest are the "union".
Mr Cox is your voice, use him do not silence him.
oah.
Last edited by olderairhead; 8th Jul 2006 at 23:17.
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LC
So why (in the NT) are there companies not providing this Award? This also being a well-known fact...
These operators should be 'enemies of the state' to such a Federation.
I am a financial member.
TC
'Ignorance is strength'
In NT and VIC we have common rule in place based upon those Awards.
These operators should be 'enemies of the state' to such a Federation.
I am a financial member.
TC
'Ignorance is strength'
I have elected not to join the AFAP for the reasons outlined by several others in this thread (read the title, the part about "what do they do for the Industry?").
Good question thought-crime, and one I'd like an answer to also... (BTW, I am probably being naive, but I don't think it is up to the AFAP or any other union to rectify breaches of IR law committed by aircraft charter companies.)
CR.
Good question thought-crime, and one I'd like an answer to also... (BTW, I am probably being naive, but I don't think it is up to the AFAP or any other union to rectify breaches of IR law committed by aircraft charter companies.)
CR.
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Have to agree with the above. Good example of this is some of the AWA's that are offered up these days...........I cannot not believe that these are no less than the award which I believe is a requirement, and as for bargaining an AWA between an employer and the employee, you aint got a hope in hell.
" Take it or leave it son............ "
But unfortunately we all love to fly planes, and employers know this fact very well, hence this is one of the few industries where conditions will continue to go backwards, as long as we are willing to make the sacrifice in order to keep ourselves airborne.
Remember, you might think what's on offer or what you have sucks, but there are plenty lining up to take your job regardless of the conditions.
Sorry Laurie, this is one industry where "union" doesn't apply.
" Take it or leave it son............ "
But unfortunately we all love to fly planes, and employers know this fact very well, hence this is one of the few industries where conditions will continue to go backwards, as long as we are willing to make the sacrifice in order to keep ourselves airborne.
Remember, you might think what's on offer or what you have sucks, but there are plenty lining up to take your job regardless of the conditions.
Sorry Laurie, this is one industry where "union" doesn't apply.
