Is a Pilot shortage leading to GA crisis?
Silly Old Git
nobody in their right mind wants to spend the rest of their life living in a succession of astonishingly awful hot dusty mentally damaging outback sh1tholes,
Originally Posted by Like This - Do That
What Bushy won't admit, though, is that nobody in their right mind wants to spend the rest of their life living in a succession of astonishingly awful hot dusty mentally damaging outback sh1tholes, flying fcuked clapped out 35 year old (and increasing) pistons, being paid pittance at best. In the absence of a more stable, predictable career path, with more certainty, youngsters will use GA as a stepping stone.
astonishingly awful hot dusty mentally damaging outback sh1tholes
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Great Southern Land
Age: 57
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
185 I take your point ..... actually I do know quite a lot of our neighbours, but we're in a quiet cul-de-sac. In our previous digs in Sydney's inner west, however, I couldn't claim the same. That WAS anonymous high density city living.
What I rather clumsily said probably should have been something like:
Most Australians are born and raised and prefer to live in coastal cities in the temperate or subtropical zones. Most who take up flying and who want to make a career of flying also prefer to live in temperate/subtropical coastal cities.
Is that better?
BTW when I want 'hands on flying' I rent a Citabria and do a few loops. Can't do that in a C210 on ya way to Borroloola!
What I rather clumsily said probably should have been something like:
Most Australians are born and raised and prefer to live in coastal cities in the temperate or subtropical zones. Most who take up flying and who want to make a career of flying also prefer to live in temperate/subtropical coastal cities.
Is that better?
BTW when I want 'hands on flying' I rent a Citabria and do a few loops. Can't do that in a C210 on ya way to Borroloola!
Originally Posted by Like This - Do That
Is that better?
BTW when I want 'hands on flying' I rent a Citabria and do a few loops. Can't do that in a C210 on ya way to Borroloola!
BTW when I want 'hands on flying' I rent a Citabria and do a few loops. Can't do that in a C210 on ya way to Borroloola!
Bet there are some intrepid souls who would beg to differ with
Can't do that in a C210 on ya way to Borroloola
Now, as to 35 year old machines, just what are we supposed to replace them with? Mine is a 79 model, and they knocked off making them (what I like to fly) in 1985. All I can do is to keep seeking out low hour machines, which are a finite resource. I reckon, that in Bushy's case, the older ones are far better handlers for mustering(if that is what Bushy does), than the newer ones. I agree that for Passenger ops, that we should be using newer aircraft, but IMHO, I would still feel safer in an older aluminium craft than an older UV cooked composite.
But I think this subject(ageing aircraft) has been done to death elsewhere.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everyone seems to be using time in the C210 as an example of an advanced pilot. In Sydney there is only one Cessna 210 for hire. THE WHOLE OF SYDNEY!!!!
How's a pilot supposed to get the time. Yes go to the bush, my point is though, that if you can't get one of the training elements in the middle of the biggest city in OZ then it is only a matter of time before they start to dissapear from the bush.
Of course we are in for a pilot shortage cause the whole industry is dead in the water. It's only a matter of time until you get on a QANTAS flight and get:
"This is Captain Apu speaking..."
I'm not being racist it's just that pilots are going to come from somewhere else than OZ.
Every reason for the death of GA can be found in the threads on pprune. The industry is SHRINKING! The knock on effect will be shortage of Aussie commercial pilots.
Just like a 1st grade footy team needs a strong junior base, a commercial airline needs a strong base of GA pilots coming up. We might have the physical people for now but as already mentioned alot don't have the time on whatever is needed.
You know it makes sense.
VB
How's a pilot supposed to get the time. Yes go to the bush, my point is though, that if you can't get one of the training elements in the middle of the biggest city in OZ then it is only a matter of time before they start to dissapear from the bush.
Of course we are in for a pilot shortage cause the whole industry is dead in the water. It's only a matter of time until you get on a QANTAS flight and get:
"This is Captain Apu speaking..."
I'm not being racist it's just that pilots are going to come from somewhere else than OZ.
Every reason for the death of GA can be found in the threads on pprune. The industry is SHRINKING! The knock on effect will be shortage of Aussie commercial pilots.
Just like a 1st grade footy team needs a strong junior base, a commercial airline needs a strong base of GA pilots coming up. We might have the physical people for now but as already mentioned alot don't have the time on whatever is needed.
You know it makes sense.
VB
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bludging airlines
Australia is one of the few countries that has the need for a widespread GA industry. The rest of the world has much smaller GA industry, and much much more numerous and bigger airlines. How do you think they get on for crew???
They do not need to seriously exploit their GA industry (if they have one), like we do.
But they run good airlines (mostly) and they do not have hundreds (thousands?) of desperate unemployed CPL's like we do, because they have virtually NO GA industry.
What's the matter with us? Why do our airlines have to have this obscene lottery running to get the few pilots they need each year??? They exploit so many people, destroy so many dreams, and do so much damage to our country"s transport industry.
They do not need to seriously exploit their GA industry (if they have one), like we do.
But they run good airlines (mostly) and they do not have hundreds (thousands?) of desperate unemployed CPL's like we do, because they have virtually NO GA industry.
What's the matter with us? Why do our airlines have to have this obscene lottery running to get the few pilots they need each year??? They exploit so many people, destroy so many dreams, and do so much damage to our country"s transport industry.
Bushy do you have any relevant experience outside of the GA industry in Australia? Your statement saying that the rest of the world has a much smaller GA insustry beggars belief. I'm sure the GA indsutries in the USA, Canada and even in third world countries like Africa are much much bigger than in Australia. I'm also fairly sure the numbers of unemployed pilots in these countries are also fairly high, take a gander at all the pilots looking for work in the African forum!
The fact is that pilots will always use GA (or whatever version their country has) as a stepping stone, always have and always will. Are you honestly telling me that when you were flying you didn't want to move onto bigger, wider, faster aircraft? If you did aren't you being a tad hypocritical now in condeming the new breed of pilots for exactly the same thing you did as a young pilot? So you chose not to go to an airline does that make it a rule that no other pilot should try to either?
The sad fact is that it's in peoples nature to always aspire to get to the top. If people deem the top to be the Airlines then so be it. As an operator instead of being bitter about this and continually compaining, how about you actually accept it goes on. Get all you can from your pilots whilst they are with you and help them to fully develop their career. A happy pilot will put much more effort into the company than one who knows his boss is constantly complaining about the fact that they dream of bigger things.
As for airlines taking GA pilots, where else are they meant to get them? It would be nearly impossible to run a cadetship to source all of your pilots, and the ADF couldn't possibly supply the amount of numbers needed either. Secondly as you so often point out GA pilots tend to have a few hours under their belt and thus have a wider range of experiences to draw from.( if I recall correctly you practically stated anyone with under 5000 hours is an accident waiting to happen!!). As has been mentioned by many people airlines like a variety of people to crew their aircraft from the ADF to cadets to GA pilots. It all goes to helping ensure a wide mix of people and therefore a wide mix of experience and ways of approaching challenges.
End of Rant, back to the topic which I believe was the shortage of pilots!
Rhodes13
The fact is that pilots will always use GA (or whatever version their country has) as a stepping stone, always have and always will. Are you honestly telling me that when you were flying you didn't want to move onto bigger, wider, faster aircraft? If you did aren't you being a tad hypocritical now in condeming the new breed of pilots for exactly the same thing you did as a young pilot? So you chose not to go to an airline does that make it a rule that no other pilot should try to either?
The sad fact is that it's in peoples nature to always aspire to get to the top. If people deem the top to be the Airlines then so be it. As an operator instead of being bitter about this and continually compaining, how about you actually accept it goes on. Get all you can from your pilots whilst they are with you and help them to fully develop their career. A happy pilot will put much more effort into the company than one who knows his boss is constantly complaining about the fact that they dream of bigger things.
As for airlines taking GA pilots, where else are they meant to get them? It would be nearly impossible to run a cadetship to source all of your pilots, and the ADF couldn't possibly supply the amount of numbers needed either. Secondly as you so often point out GA pilots tend to have a few hours under their belt and thus have a wider range of experiences to draw from.( if I recall correctly you practically stated anyone with under 5000 hours is an accident waiting to happen!!). As has been mentioned by many people airlines like a variety of people to crew their aircraft from the ADF to cadets to GA pilots. It all goes to helping ensure a wide mix of people and therefore a wide mix of experience and ways of approaching challenges.
End of Rant, back to the topic which I believe was the shortage of pilots!
Rhodes13
Grandpa Aerotart
VB and Rhodes...As a product of the GA school of hard knocks myself...and I mean the real one..I do believe that a well rounded, disciplined GA background produces a pilot who has much to offer airlines...but don't kid yourself, the senior management pilots, or at least 80% of them, DO NOT THINK SO.
Slowly but surely the oz airlines will be dragged to the all cadet system.
Young blokes will apply, be tested extensively and be awarded cadetships...hopefully in the same vein as the UK model but don't hold your breath, that's a long way further down the track.
They will be trained two crew, multi engine from day one...heavily reliant on sims in the later half of the CPL syllabus...and then be farmed out to Regionals for 3 yrs to get some manipulative skills.
It is completely beyond me why QF have not gone down this route further already. They own several regionals with suitable turboprops...they SHOULD be giving the young guys there progression and feeding cadets in on the bottom of Eastern/Sunnies seniority lists....along with the 'cream', for want of a better term, of the GA applicants.
If I was running those areas at QF NOT ONE pilot would join straight from GA to mainline...and few from the Military either, save those who had been flying 707/737/A330.
Every Cadet and every GA pilot hired off Metros, Barons etc would slide into the right seat of a Dash and spend a min 3 years....some would end up staying for commands and some might come back from mainline for commands....particularly older guys wanting to do some of their last years un jetlagged....yes during downturns you might find yourself doing 10 years in the regional...tell someone who cares....some guys and girls might not cut it for the jets and spend the rest of their aviation careers in the regionals...ditto on care factor,
But QF management won't go for it because one seniority system throughout would throw a HUMOUNGOUS spanner in the works.
This is what AIPA,AFAP,JPC etc should be uniting for...DEMANDING on threat of massive, widespread, united industrial action...The upper levels of QF would poo their pants
..I do believe that a well rounded, disciplined GA background produces a pilot who has much to offer airlines...but don't kid yourself, the senior management pilots, or at least 80% of them, DO NOT THINK SO. Slowly but surely the oz airlines will be dragged to the all cadet system.
Young blokes will apply, be tested extensively and be awarded cadetships...hopefully in the same vein as the UK model but don't hold your breath, that's a long way further down the track.
They will be trained two crew, multi engine from day one...heavily reliant on sims in the later half of the CPL syllabus...and then be farmed out to Regionals for 3 yrs to get some manipulative skills.
It is completely beyond me why QF have not gone down this route further already. They own several regionals with suitable turboprops...they SHOULD be giving the young guys there progression and feeding cadets in on the bottom of Eastern/Sunnies seniority lists....along with the 'cream', for want of a better term, of the GA applicants.
If I was running those areas at QF NOT ONE pilot would join straight from GA to mainline...and few from the Military either, save those who had been flying 707/737/A330.
Every Cadet and every GA pilot hired off Metros, Barons etc would slide into the right seat of a Dash and spend a min 3 years....some would end up staying for commands and some might come back from mainline for commands....particularly older guys wanting to do some of their last years un jetlagged....yes during downturns you might find yourself doing 10 years in the regional...tell someone who cares....some guys and girls might not cut it for the jets and spend the rest of their aviation careers in the regionals...ditto on care factor,
But QF management won't go for it because one seniority system throughout would throw a HUMOUNGOUS spanner in the works.
This is what AIPA,AFAP,JPC etc should be uniting for...DEMANDING on threat of massive, widespread, united industrial action...The upper levels of QF would poo their pants
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: At home
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Victa Bravo
Every reason for the death of GA can be found in the threads on pprune. The industry is SHRINKING! The knock on effect will be shortage of Aussie commercial pilots.
VB
VB
Surely that would be good for wages & conditions?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
chuckles
Hallelujah.
It seems that every thing we do in aviation in Australia has to start from the reinvention of the wheel. The European experience in airline training has been turning out airline pilots with the necessary skills to deal with an environment that is far more crowded and far more extreme weather wise than Australia.
Yet we persist with the neanderthal requirements we have.
However, I think the basic premise of this thread is correct and the declining numbers of acceptable candidates for airline entry will eventually force the change that you speak of and not before time.
Hallelujah.
It seems that every thing we do in aviation in Australia has to start from the reinvention of the wheel. The European experience in airline training has been turning out airline pilots with the necessary skills to deal with an environment that is far more crowded and far more extreme weather wise than Australia.
Yet we persist with the neanderthal requirements we have.
However, I think the basic premise of this thread is correct and the declining numbers of acceptable candidates for airline entry will eventually force the change that you speak of and not before time.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Down Under
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just remember Guys and Girls of GA,
The people that best know the industry you work in is YOU!
Don't for a minute think that Management in any Australian City have any comprehension of the pressures you work under or the current/future state of the Industry.
Hopefully, for your sake - Other pilots that have been in your position before you do not allow Management Personnel to denegrate our Profession any further....
Unfortunately, management personnel have very little understanding of the difficulties (financial and lifestyle related) we all have on the road towards our goal (Jet Command).
Once again - It is the responsibility of Senior Pilots in our nation's Airlines and representative associations/unions/councils to stand up to management and protect what we deserve.
I really hope that those in AIPA and the JPC understand the true implications of what is at stake...
Shortage or not....you are all professional pilots. You know your industry. Don't let anyone else convince you otherwise.
The people that best know the industry you work in is YOU!
Don't for a minute think that Management in any Australian City have any comprehension of the pressures you work under or the current/future state of the Industry.
Hopefully, for your sake - Other pilots that have been in your position before you do not allow Management Personnel to denegrate our Profession any further....
Unfortunately, management personnel have very little understanding of the difficulties (financial and lifestyle related) we all have on the road towards our goal (Jet Command).
Once again - It is the responsibility of Senior Pilots in our nation's Airlines and representative associations/unions/councils to stand up to management and protect what we deserve.
I really hope that those in AIPA and the JPC understand the true implications of what is at stake...
Shortage or not....you are all professional pilots. You know your industry. Don't let anyone else convince you otherwise.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 174.79*E
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot Surplus
There never has been and will never be a shortage of pilots in Oz. The only change possibly in numbers, is that from a gross oversupply of pilots to an oversupply of pilots.
At the end of the day, as long as there is no academic entry level and pilots can get their licences through MULTIPLE sittings of multi-guess exams.Resits being done every week, there is no barrier even to the most inept.
So the botton line is, as long as you have the money the dreamers will follow. When major airlines recognise a 2 week course in Maths & Physics to fulfil the Year 12 requirement, there is no incentive for even the airline hopefulls to tackle these subjects at Year 12.
JAR exams are taken 4 times a year and have to be completed in a fairly short space in time when compared to our system.The exams are demanding not like ours.
At the end of the day, as long as there is no academic entry level and pilots can get their licences through MULTIPLE sittings of multi-guess exams.Resits being done every week, there is no barrier even to the most inept.
So the botton line is, as long as you have the money the dreamers will follow. When major airlines recognise a 2 week course in Maths & Physics to fulfil the Year 12 requirement, there is no incentive for even the airline hopefulls to tackle these subjects at Year 12.
JAR exams are taken 4 times a year and have to be completed in a fairly short space in time when compared to our system.The exams are demanding not like ours.
Shortage sounds good.
Once I finish up here. I'll start a flying school with a small charter company.
Tell the hopefulls there is a shortage. I'm sure il'l make enough money to supplement by nice pension.
Keep talking guys I love this so called shortage.
Tell the hopefulls there is a shortage. I'm sure il'l make enough money to supplement by nice pension.
Keep talking guys I love this so called shortage.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aha the old pilot shortage chestnut, this gets dragged out around every 12 months and we all have a good time shooting it down. The sad fact is that it's no more than a sales pitch touted by the flight training industry.
Grandpa Aerotart
Once again - It is the responsibility of Senior Pilots in our nation's Airlines and representative associations/unions/councils to stand up to management and protect what we deserve.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
???????
Originally Posted by Like This - Do That
What Bushy won't admit, though, is that nobody in their right mind wants to spend the rest of their life living in a succession of astonishingly awful hot dusty mentally damaging outback sh1tholes, flying fcuked clapped out 35 year old (and increasing) pistons, being paid pittance at best. In the absence of a more stable, predictable career path, with more certainty, youngsters will use GA as a stepping stone.
If you did what you describe then you are a fool.
This is a puzzle. the first part of your post indicates reason, and logical thought. The second (quoted) part does not.
Last edited by bushy; 5th Mar 2006 at 04:01.
Originally Posted by bushy
Can't you fellows handle it? I found a stable reasonably paid career path,in GA, mainly in the outback for three decades. We bought two houses, two cars a block of land, educated three kids, sent two to uni, and bought aeroplanes.
I guess if you take the time to find a nichefor your skills, you will eventually find your place.
That doesn't help some of you blokes in the short term.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Aerodynamisist
Aha the old pilot shortage chestnut, this gets dragged out around every 12 months and we all have a good time shooting it down. The sad fact is that it's no more than a sales pitch touted by the flight training industry.
Ok put an add in the paper with mining requirements of 1500 command 500 multi with your phone number and see how many calls you get from pilots with those hours.