Bad English
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Bad English
Hi Ppruners,
Well, it's time to ride the high horse again. This time, it's about the poor standard of the english language that seems to be allowed to be lowered for certain schools that have contracts with overseas airlines and students.
On the Student Licence application form, it states that the person signing the authorization has assessed the applicant and found them competent in communicating in English to the standard required for exercising the privileges of a student pilot licence.
My point is this; I can't understand them, my students can't understand them and ATC also have trouble understanding them.
Quite often, MB TWR will ask them to "say again, call sign only", because they can see them and know that they are inbound etc..
Today (13/11/05), a CPL trainee from a land reknown for their curry, from 3 star aviation, created madness and mayhem at a CTAF. First, they were using non standard calls followed by false position reporting saying they were 10 miles them 1 mile only seconds later and joining the "CIRCUS" speaking jibberish. The circuit was so big, that the 3 other aircraft flying circuits could not see them.
You mark my words (because that's what people say when they're on their high horse). There will be a conflict leading to an accident.......and don't get me started on the GFS conga line of C172s making their way through some rather busy CTAFs in Victoria!
"MM taxi for tha CIRCUS oneway 5 number 1"
Well, it's time to ride the high horse again. This time, it's about the poor standard of the english language that seems to be allowed to be lowered for certain schools that have contracts with overseas airlines and students.
On the Student Licence application form, it states that the person signing the authorization has assessed the applicant and found them competent in communicating in English to the standard required for exercising the privileges of a student pilot licence.
My point is this; I can't understand them, my students can't understand them and ATC also have trouble understanding them.
Quite often, MB TWR will ask them to "say again, call sign only", because they can see them and know that they are inbound etc..
Today (13/11/05), a CPL trainee from a land reknown for their curry, from 3 star aviation, created madness and mayhem at a CTAF. First, they were using non standard calls followed by false position reporting saying they were 10 miles them 1 mile only seconds later and joining the "CIRCUS" speaking jibberish. The circuit was so big, that the 3 other aircraft flying circuits could not see them.
You mark my words (because that's what people say when they're on their high horse). There will be a conflict leading to an accident.......and don't get me started on the GFS conga line of C172s making their way through some rather busy CTAFs in Victoria!
"MM taxi for tha CIRCUS oneway 5 number 1"
Last edited by Mere Mortal; 13th Nov 2005 at 09:22.
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Point well taken, I also fly at MB and understand what you mean.
However I take it are you referring to spoken "english" (sic) and not the written form? 
competent in communicating in English
That's not the real issue MM. The family company has traded in the middle east for thirty years.
The issue is not the quality of the decision making, its the quality of the communication style. There is nothing wrong with the abilities of the students at all.
The trouble is the tradition of answering "yes" to authority figures. As in: " do you know why you protect the nosewheel"?"yes" "Do you know how to protect the nosewheel?" "Yes".
Even I got that one wrong but there were four more who demonstrated that they didn't know either.
As a general rule when the circuit fills up with people who can't speak English very well, I do a full stop because I prefer to be the dumbest person in the circuit, as I was when I started flying. I just don't like having to look out for people who are as dumb as I used to be.
Call me selfish, you are right.
The issue is not the quality of the decision making, its the quality of the communication style. There is nothing wrong with the abilities of the students at all.
The trouble is the tradition of answering "yes" to authority figures. As in: " do you know why you protect the nosewheel"?"yes" "Do you know how to protect the nosewheel?" "Yes".
Even I got that one wrong but there were four more who demonstrated that they didn't know either.
As a general rule when the circuit fills up with people who can't speak English very well, I do a full stop because I prefer to be the dumbest person in the circuit, as I was when I started flying. I just don't like having to look out for people who are as dumb as I used to be.
Call me selfish, you are right.
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On the Student Licence application form, it states that the person signing the authorization has assessed the applicant and found them competent in communicating in English to the standard required for exercising the privileges of a student pilot licence.
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My other particular favourite is when said school lets 2 or 3 aircraft depart on the same navex within five minutes of eachother. As soon as they've cleared MB, they're on the nearest CTAF frequency bantering on with 30 second position updates. If they are so worried about banging into each other, perhaps just depart with 10 minutes between each aircraft? I don't see the point of the navex anyway. They all clearly have GPS given that the banter includes distances from Ballarat down to 2 decimal places. For me it's not a language issue, they're just not being taught how to manage the radio properly.
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Funny , seen or should i say "heard the same sort of carry on many years ago at parafield!"
Just a case of know where you are and have eyes in the back of your head , as those tobagos come hunting you down!!
Also as the workload grows on students , E.G more that 2 or 3 aircraft in the circuit their focus becomes on flying and they seem to loose their communication skills. ( not a dig but just what i have observed) as im sure this happens to many who are learning to fly.
But it's also funny how the lack of english skills can lead you astray in the circuit as it can in the theory exams.
Don't want to hijack the thread , but i believe the same goes for Casa/asl theory examinations.
Why is it these days you have to be a english expert/mind reader to guess/interpret what the examiners are asking you?
Give me related questions on systems , met , irex etc and i'll give you the correct answers. sit me in front of a computer asking double dutch question with a time limit and i can give you an explination. Although there are usualy only 3-4 simular multiple choice answers.
Why is it they (the authorities at be) give you so much greif with the questions (by mixing up what they ask , making you interperate their english) than asking proper serious operational questions?
Are you supposed to be an english expert instead of a pilot who knows his systems etc , or are you suppose to be the almighty knowall???
Just a case of know where you are and have eyes in the back of your head , as those tobagos come hunting you down!!
Also as the workload grows on students , E.G more that 2 or 3 aircraft in the circuit their focus becomes on flying and they seem to loose their communication skills. ( not a dig but just what i have observed) as im sure this happens to many who are learning to fly.
But it's also funny how the lack of english skills can lead you astray in the circuit as it can in the theory exams.
Don't want to hijack the thread , but i believe the same goes for Casa/asl theory examinations.
Why is it these days you have to be a english expert/mind reader to guess/interpret what the examiners are asking you?
Give me related questions on systems , met , irex etc and i'll give you the correct answers. sit me in front of a computer asking double dutch question with a time limit and i can give you an explination. Although there are usualy only 3-4 simular multiple choice answers.
Why is it they (the authorities at be) give you so much greif with the questions (by mixing up what they ask , making you interperate their english) than asking proper serious operational questions?
Are you supposed to be an english expert instead of a pilot who knows his systems etc , or are you suppose to be the almighty knowall???
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A certain other aviation activist has a vision of Australia as the flying training capital of the world, and is implementing a range of reforms to "internationalize" our airspace and procedures to bring that about. As such it would probably be a bit more appropriate for all the whingers at YMMB to brush up on their international English than whine about the efforts of others as the good-old exclusively Ozzie version is a relic of the 1950's and we all really have to move on.
I find your views racist and deplorable. Each of these beaut new-Aussie mates brings loverly dollars from other countries with functioning economies and they must not be discouraged, whether used to a diet of curry, rice, whale, small dogs or, um, something kosher. Or Halal.
I find your views racist and deplorable. Each of these beaut new-Aussie mates brings loverly dollars from other countries with functioning economies and they must not be discouraged, whether used to a diet of curry, rice, whale, small dogs or, um, something kosher. Or Halal.
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Jumpu,
It's not that I'm racist, the problem is that standards across the broad at some of the larger schools at MB, are allowed to be lowered to rubber stamp students through at the minimum.
If you going to do a computer course, surely you would be required to have some level of typing skills to cope.
And as for Australia becoming the world training centre. I can see in the future, there will be shortage of expierenced Instructors to service the growing need. There are not enough Grade 1s to supervise the juniors as it is. Not to Hijack my own thread!
MM
It's not that I'm racist, the problem is that standards across the broad at some of the larger schools at MB, are allowed to be lowered to rubber stamp students through at the minimum.
If you going to do a computer course, surely you would be required to have some level of typing skills to cope.
And as for Australia becoming the world training centre. I can see in the future, there will be shortage of expierenced Instructors to service the growing need. There are not enough Grade 1s to supervise the juniors as it is. Not to Hijack my own thread!
MM
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[QUOTE]Today (13/11/05), a CPL trainee from a land reknown for their curry, from 3 star aviation, created madness and mayhem at a CTAF. First, they were using non standard calls followed by false position reporting saying they were 10 miles them 1 mile only seconds later and joining the "CIRCUS" speaking jibberish. The circuit was so big, that the 3 other aircraft flying circuits could not see them
Nothing racist here,just an observation of what can go on at CTAF's when non english speaking students come blasting through. Most of these guys can speak english.What's needed is for the instructors to explain to them that it's better to speak slowly and allow everyone to understand you. No point in blurting out some gibberish as fast as you can and then not having anyone understand you. In the long run that makes the frequency even more congested.
Nothing racist here,just an observation of what can go on at CTAF's when non english speaking students come blasting through. Most of these guys can speak english.What's needed is for the instructors to explain to them that it's better to speak slowly and allow everyone to understand you. No point in blurting out some gibberish as fast as you can and then not having anyone understand you. In the long run that makes the frequency even more congested.
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Fair comment Dude but also like to add that a certain percentage of these students only really learn the standard phrases, so when anything slightly different pops up they just simply do not understand or do not know how to respond.
By the way that wine was very nice
By the way that wine was very nice
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Bummer, I was hoping this thread was actually gonna be about that big hair band from the eighties. Yeknow the guys... Bad English? Pruners might remember their hit 'When I see you smile"....
Sometimes I wonder
How I'd ever make it through,
Through this world without having you
I just wouldn't have a clue
'Cause sometimes it seems
Like this world's closing in on me,
And there's no way of breaking free
And then I see you reach for me
Sometimes I wanna give up
I wanna give in,
I wanna quit the fight
And then I see you, baby
And everything's alright,
everything's alright
When I see you smile
I can face the world, oh oh,
you know I can do anything
When I see you smile
I see a ray of light, oh oh,
I see it shining right through the rain
When I see you smile
Oh yeah, baby when I see you smile at me
Baby there's nothing in this world
that could ever do
What a touch of your hand can do
It's like nothing that I ever knew
And when the rain is falling
I don't feel it,
'cause you're here with me now
And one look at you baby
Is all I'll ever need,
you're all I'll ever need
Chorus
Sometimes I wanna give up
I wanna give in,
I wanna quit the fight
And then I see you baby
And everything's alright,
everything's alright
So right...
Click here to download the MP3:
http://www.mp3advance.com/?hop=sing365
Sometimes I wonder
How I'd ever make it through,
Through this world without having you
I just wouldn't have a clue
'Cause sometimes it seems
Like this world's closing in on me,
And there's no way of breaking free
And then I see you reach for me
Sometimes I wanna give up
I wanna give in,
I wanna quit the fight
And then I see you, baby
And everything's alright,
everything's alright
When I see you smile
I can face the world, oh oh,
you know I can do anything
When I see you smile
I see a ray of light, oh oh,
I see it shining right through the rain
When I see you smile
Oh yeah, baby when I see you smile at me
Baby there's nothing in this world
that could ever do
What a touch of your hand can do
It's like nothing that I ever knew
And when the rain is falling
I don't feel it,
'cause you're here with me now
And one look at you baby
Is all I'll ever need,
you're all I'll ever need
Chorus
Sometimes I wanna give up
I wanna give in,
I wanna quit the fight
And then I see you baby
And everything's alright,
everything's alright
So right...
Click here to download the MP3:
http://www.mp3advance.com/?hop=sing365
Jumpu, I think you are totally missing the point. The problem is not overseas students its the training the get in Australia that is at fault. .
There are a number of Universities in this town that teach English to overseas students for a whole year before they can attend University and at least two of them do a totally rotten, expensive and corrupt job of it, passing students and giving them certificates when they have an absolutely abysmal command of the language.
I've seen three badly damaged Cessna's all with the same "nosewheel" problem and on more than one occasion watched the most unbelievable antics, including one guy who saved tyre tread by floating almost the entire length of 35R!
Thats one of the reasons I'm for mandatory calls as opposed to "recommended' calls. I'm concerned that after the 25th, some of these kids are going to go out on navex's and not utter a peep along the way because they don't have to and because its easier that way.
There are a number of Universities in this town that teach English to overseas students for a whole year before they can attend University and at least two of them do a totally rotten, expensive and corrupt job of it, passing students and giving them certificates when they have an absolutely abysmal command of the language.
I've seen three badly damaged Cessna's all with the same "nosewheel" problem and on more than one occasion watched the most unbelievable antics, including one guy who saved tyre tread by floating almost the entire length of 35R!
Thats one of the reasons I'm for mandatory calls as opposed to "recommended' calls. I'm concerned that after the 25th, some of these kids are going to go out on navex's and not utter a peep along the way because they don't have to and because its easier that way.
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They all clearly have GPS given that the banter includes distances from Ballarat down to 2 decimal places.
i remember doing ALL my navex's with nothing more than a map, compass, weather report and a dodgy ADF. and on special occasion, VOR and DME.
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The problem as I see it is....
The people operating the flying schools are driven by greed and making the almighty dollar. They simply do not care if the student can speak english to an acceptable and understandable level or not. They care about the fact this students tuition will be paid probably in a lump sum in full.
They see it as simply money in their pockets. They generally make no attempt to help the student with their english, nor make any attempt to correct the students poor english standard during the lessons or for the purpose of speaking on the radio.
The joke of the whole matter is that english is supposed to be the standard language of international flight. Yet half of the students these sausage factory schools are producing have not grasped the basics of the language. Nor can they apply these basics to the use of the radio.
Someone needs to do something about it. Plain and simple. The problem is that the flying schools will do nothing about it unless they are harassed by the powers that be.
Be warned, Evil Ultralights: You are sailing close to the wind with that last paragraph (deleted by me). Racism, either actual or implied will not be tolerated.
Woomera (Eastern States)
They see it as simply money in their pockets. They generally make no attempt to help the student with their english, nor make any attempt to correct the students poor english standard during the lessons or for the purpose of speaking on the radio.
The joke of the whole matter is that english is supposed to be the standard language of international flight. Yet half of the students these sausage factory schools are producing have not grasped the basics of the language. Nor can they apply these basics to the use of the radio.
Someone needs to do something about it. Plain and simple. The problem is that the flying schools will do nothing about it unless they are harassed by the powers that be.
Be warned, Evil Ultralights: You are sailing close to the wind with that last paragraph (deleted by me). Racism, either actual or implied will not be tolerated.
Woomera (Eastern States)
Last edited by Woomera; 15th Nov 2005 at 01:50.
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Meh, go overseas and learn to fly there, see how you tackle the language barrier.
English speaking nations are very arrogant when it comes to language however, we are lucky English is the international aviation language.
What gets up my goat is the lack of situational awareness many of these SPL's display. They fly very well when told track heading 024 until 500ft, left 30, fly heading e.t.c till 1000ft, right turn 20, etc, they will fly this chain perfectly, throw something in to mix it up and they fall to bits!!
It may be culture or many other factors, but most reputable airlines in the world you will find a English anglosaxon born and raised in the LH seat, while many of the "other's" are career RH.....
Make any sense?
4S
English speaking nations are very arrogant when it comes to language however, we are lucky English is the international aviation language.
What gets up my goat is the lack of situational awareness many of these SPL's display. They fly very well when told track heading 024 until 500ft, left 30, fly heading e.t.c till 1000ft, right turn 20, etc, they will fly this chain perfectly, throw something in to mix it up and they fall to bits!!
It may be culture or many other factors, but most reputable airlines in the world you will find a English anglosaxon born and raised in the LH seat, while many of the "other's" are career RH.....
Make any sense?
4S
4Spooled, what you are witnessing is not stupidity at all. What you are actually seeing is an ingrained respect for authority and learning by rote.
They are in a classic "Double Bind" situation.
1. Your teacher has told you to do something. If your teacher has told you it is to be done then it must be possible to do it that way. All wisdom comes from the teacher.
2. But now there is a problem and I cannot do what my teacher has told me to do! But this is wrong - see item one. How do I conform to her wishes??????
We are now in an infinite loop.
Furthermore, in at least one non english speaking country, initiative is regarded with very very deep suspicion. There is a very long racial memory that those that use initiative, and do not follow the herd, get their heads cut off.
I've seen the same thing happen in the last year of my engineering degree. A lecturer says "well, thats the current state of knowledge in this subject. From now on we will simply speculate about the various current research directions". Some of the non english seaking Engineering students simply wnet into a loop because they are used to rote learning. Others grabbed the bull by the horns and used their own initiative.
They are in a classic "Double Bind" situation.
1. Your teacher has told you to do something. If your teacher has told you it is to be done then it must be possible to do it that way. All wisdom comes from the teacher.
2. But now there is a problem and I cannot do what my teacher has told me to do! But this is wrong - see item one. How do I conform to her wishes??????
We are now in an infinite loop.
Furthermore, in at least one non english speaking country, initiative is regarded with very very deep suspicion. There is a very long racial memory that those that use initiative, and do not follow the herd, get their heads cut off.
I've seen the same thing happen in the last year of my engineering degree. A lecturer says "well, thats the current state of knowledge in this subject. From now on we will simply speculate about the various current research directions". Some of the non english seaking Engineering students simply wnet into a loop because they are used to rote learning. Others grabbed the bull by the horns and used their own initiative.
