"Leaving" or "Left" Altitudes (ATC'ers pls)
Below are extracts from both the AIP and JEPPS. They both refer to calls made associated with a frequency change when descent has already commenced. Some people now take this to mean that any time you leave an assigned level, the correct terminology is "leaving". When I am on centre maintaining one level whilst assigned another, should I say "leaving" or "left" when I start descent? I am after specific references either in the AIP or JEPPS for commencing descent in controlled airspace. I am not after opinions or English lessons, only specific references for this single case whilst still on the centre frequency that assigned the lower level.
'After any frequency change, pilots must advise the last assigned level and, if not maintaining the assigned level, the level maintaining or last vacated level: eg, "MELBOURNE CENTRE (CALLSIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".'
Jeppesen
Air Traffic Control (page AU-705)
DESCENT AND ENTRY
1.9.1.4
eg: "MELBOURNE CENTER (CALL-SIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO"
'After any frequency change, pilots must advise the last assigned level and, if not maintaining the assigned level, the level maintaining or last vacated level: eg, "MELBOURNE CENTRE (CALLSIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".'
Jeppesen
Air Traffic Control (page AU-705)
DESCENT AND ENTRY
1.9.1.4
eg: "MELBOURNE CENTER (CALL-SIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO"
I'm in one of those moods
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Capt Claret
Most regional tower will have them by now!
Rule of thumb is...if there is useable radar coverage into the tower CTR steps then the tower should have a TSAD.
TSAD is only showing us what the Coops (TAARTS) have always seen in any case
Cannot charge for a service that does not happen or exist
Most regional tower will have them by now!
Rule of thumb is...if there is useable radar coverage into the tower CTR steps then the tower should have a TSAD.
TSAD is only showing us what the Coops (TAARTS) have always seen in any case
Cannot charge for a service that does not happen or exist
left altitude
technically you should not call" left" a lower level until passing 100 feet above or below that level due tolerance of calibrationof the altimeter (+- 3 millibars)
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I have also read my AIP regarding this extremely important matter.
My copy says:-
ENR 1.1-19, Paragraph 11.1.4
'After any frequency change, pilots must advise the last assigned level and, if not maintaining the assigned level, the level maintaining or last vacated level: eg, "MELBOURNE CENTRE (CALLSIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, SHALL HAVE BEEN LEAVING HAVING HAS LEFT FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".'
I also heard some amateur on the radio call "TAXYING". We professionals know to actually call "TAXIING" or "TAXI-ING".
As many posters have already said, good radio calls are the mark of a true professional. Thank god there are no losers posting here.
My copy says:-
ENR 1.1-19, Paragraph 11.1.4
'After any frequency change, pilots must advise the last assigned level and, if not maintaining the assigned level, the level maintaining or last vacated level: eg, "MELBOURNE CENTRE (CALLSIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, SHALL HAVE BEEN LEAVING HAVING HAS LEFT FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".'
I also heard some amateur on the radio call "TAXYING". We professionals know to actually call "TAXIING" or "TAXI-ING".
As many posters have already said, good radio calls are the mark of a true professional. Thank god there are no losers posting here.
Okay I have dug up this old thread to ask the ATCOs on here a question...
The AIP/Jepp used to say that pilots were required to call leaving/left a level they had been maintaing in CTA. This appears to have been removed, some time ago by the look of it. The only reference now is "after a frequency cahnge..." Jepp AU705 1.9.1.4
The other reference is AU-806 3.5.1.6
It appears many pilots still give this call, is it required anymore, particularly when radar identified?
eg. "ABC when ready descend to FL 130"
"when ready descend FL130 ABC"
then after a minute or two...
"ABC left/leaving FL230"
What is interesting is that as I fly from coast to coast there are some regional differences as to what is said and it appears also what is expected.
Comments from ATCOs would be appreciated.
The AIP/Jepp used to say that pilots were required to call leaving/left a level they had been maintaing in CTA. This appears to have been removed, some time ago by the look of it. The only reference now is "after a frequency cahnge..." Jepp AU705 1.9.1.4
The other reference is AU-806 3.5.1.6
It appears many pilots still give this call, is it required anymore, particularly when radar identified?
eg. "ABC when ready descend to FL 130"
"when ready descend FL130 ABC"
then after a minute or two...
"ABC left/leaving FL230"
What is interesting is that as I fly from coast to coast there are some regional differences as to what is said and it appears also what is expected.
Comments from ATCOs would be appreciated.
Last edited by Icarus2001; 6th Sep 2006 at 02:39.
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AFAIK, there has been no change to the AIP...
What has crept in more is "assigned FL130 left FL230"; really confusing if you clip it, or someone else is talking to me on a non VHF line. Would prefer "left FL230" only; otherwise I'm obliged to confirm the level you read to me when vacating, which might lead me (and does) to say "say again assigned level"... But we've already been there and done that when I originally gave you the level...
What has crept in more is "assigned FL130 left FL230"; really confusing if you clip it, or someone else is talking to me on a non VHF line. Would prefer "left FL230" only; otherwise I'm obliged to confirm the level you read to me when vacating, which might lead me (and does) to say "say again assigned level"... But we've already been there and done that when I originally gave you the level...
Some might say that they've been approaching 6000 since they started to taxi (if climbing)
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Yes Report "Left"
Although I am not an ATCO, here is my tuppence worth.
The reference you quote states:
The equivalent reference in AIP is ENR 1.7 - 4.1.6
My view, based upon that reference, is that you are still required to report "left" a level. I say "left" as I once asked an ATCO, over VHF, whether they believed leaving or left was the correct term. After consulting with others he quoted this exact passage as the basis for "left" being the correct term.
The reference you quote states:
3.5.1.6 The pilot-in-command of an aircraft,
receiving an instruction from ATC to change level,
must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which level
flight has been conducted in the course of climb,
cruise or descent; and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC
has requested a report.
receiving an instruction from ATC to change level,
must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which level
flight has been conducted in the course of climb,
cruise or descent; and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC
has requested a report.
My view, based upon that reference, is that you are still required to report "left" a level. I say "left" as I once asked an ATCO, over VHF, whether they believed leaving or left was the correct term. After consulting with others he quoted this exact passage as the basis for "left" being the correct term.
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Any synonym of "Left" works for me, "vacated", "leaving", "out of (American accent required)", "commenced descent", "departed", but "left" works well...
It's the advice that's important, not the words used, as long as there is no ambiguity.
I work in radar, lack of advice of leaving a level, tends to leave me getting an 'approaching FLXXX" call, (response to self well if you have said "left FLXXX" I'd have giving you lower...), response to you "descend FLZZZ" This is especially common when you've had a when ready descend advice and you take more than 5 minutes to descend; i.e. I don't need to look at you (in terms of next task) until you call "left FLXXX".
It's the advice that's important, not the words used, as long as there is no ambiguity.
I work in radar, lack of advice of leaving a level, tends to leave me getting an 'approaching FLXXX" call, (response to self well if you have said "left FLXXX" I'd have giving you lower...), response to you "descend FLZZZ" This is especially common when you've had a when ready descend advice and you take more than 5 minutes to descend; i.e. I don't need to look at you (in terms of next task) until you call "left FLXXX".
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Icarus....
actually "FL130 ABC" is all that is required !!
It's now 9 years since all the readback changes - you would expect that most folk would get it right by now.
"when ready descend FL130 ABC"
actually "FL130 ABC" is all that is required !!
It's now 9 years since all the readback changes - you would expect that most folk would get it right by now.
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Given the variety of accents and the variations in English proficiency I encounter, I detest the word "LEFT" to report out of an altitude. It's not too big a stretch of the imagination for this to be misconstrued as a (compass) direction. I much prefer "OUT OF" since it does not refer to any other aviation thing.
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Thank you BSD. A pilot that reads his/her AIP.
The phrase is LEFT. The controller is not confused. Other pilots that read their AIP are not confused.
Clever folk tha wanna use their own phrases, go build your own airspace system and play there.
There is no problem. Thus no solutions or bright ideas are required.
AIP. You paid for it. Why not read the bluddy thing?
The phrase is LEFT. The controller is not confused. Other pilots that read their AIP are not confused.
Clever folk tha wanna use their own phrases, go build your own airspace system and play there.
There is no problem. Thus no solutions or bright ideas are required.
AIP. You paid for it. Why not read the bluddy thing?
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Great thread!
You ATC'ers seem to be saying that after you give an instruction like:
"ABC, when ready, descend to 7,000"
pilots should not read back the "when ready" words; i.e, we should just respond:
"ABC, 7,000".
But, if there is no read back of the "when ready" part, doesn't that open the door to the kind of uncertainty that the "left XXXX" is meant to resolve?
For example, consider this scenario where VH-ABC is given descent clearance "when ready" but doesn't hear the "when ready" words:
ATC: "ABC, when ready, descend to 7,000"
ABC: "ABC, 7,000"
But VH-ABC, having not heard the "when ready" words, commences descent immediately and as seems to be customary when given immediate climbs/descents, does not add the "left 7,000".
So, in this scenario, ABC is now on descent but ATC thinks he is still maintaining his original level. What if the ATC radar was to now fail?
In fact, isn't the whole reason for reporting having left a level so that ATC can update the manual record (formerly the "flight strip") for just in case the radar fails?
You ATC'ers seem to be saying that after you give an instruction like:
"ABC, when ready, descend to 7,000"
pilots should not read back the "when ready" words; i.e, we should just respond:
"ABC, 7,000".
But, if there is no read back of the "when ready" part, doesn't that open the door to the kind of uncertainty that the "left XXXX" is meant to resolve?
For example, consider this scenario where VH-ABC is given descent clearance "when ready" but doesn't hear the "when ready" words:
ATC: "ABC, when ready, descend to 7,000"
ABC: "ABC, 7,000"
But VH-ABC, having not heard the "when ready" words, commences descent immediately and as seems to be customary when given immediate climbs/descents, does not add the "left 7,000".
So, in this scenario, ABC is now on descent but ATC thinks he is still maintaining his original level. What if the ATC radar was to now fail?
In fact, isn't the whole reason for reporting having left a level so that ATC can update the manual record (formerly the "flight strip") for just in case the radar fails?
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For AMPR:
Nope, you should read back, '7000, ABC'.
I give a 'when ready' instruction with descent to give YOU the flexibility to commence descent when YOU want to. Ultimately, I don't care exactly when you commence the descent. If I need you to commence descent I'll either leave out the 'when ready' or use something like 'descend to 7000, reach 7000 by XXX'.
Once I've assigned a level change to an aircraft I consider you to be at the previously assigned level, the new level or anywhere in between regardless of whether 'when ready' was used or not. Doesn't matter whether the pressure-altitude derived level info or ATS surveillance system is not working as I can always ask whether you have LEFT, are LEAVING, or are OUT OF (whatever) any particular level.
Nope, you should read back, '7000, ABC'.
I give a 'when ready' instruction with descent to give YOU the flexibility to commence descent when YOU want to. Ultimately, I don't care exactly when you commence the descent. If I need you to commence descent I'll either leave out the 'when ready' or use something like 'descend to 7000, reach 7000 by XXX'.
Once I've assigned a level change to an aircraft I consider you to be at the previously assigned level, the new level or anywhere in between regardless of whether 'when ready' was used or not. Doesn't matter whether the pressure-altitude derived level info or ATS surveillance system is not working as I can always ask whether you have LEFT, are LEAVING, or are OUT OF (whatever) any particular level.
Bottums Up
APMR
In the scenario you paint, the correct read back,assuming one hasn't heard the "when ready" is; 7,000, left/leaving [cruise level], ABC
Just responding to a level assignment doesn't indicate the departure from the old level, hence the requirement to report left/leaving a maintained level.
Occasionally in the confusion, ATC will omit the usual "when ready", or we will miss the "when ready". If unsure it's simple to get clarification.
In the scenario you paint, the correct read back,assuming one hasn't heard the "when ready" is; 7,000, left/leaving [cruise level], ABC
Just responding to a level assignment doesn't indicate the departure from the old level, hence the requirement to report left/leaving a maintained level.
Occasionally in the confusion, ATC will omit the usual "when ready", or we will miss the "when ready". If unsure it's simple to get clarification.
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APMR, there is no manual record... it's TAAATS now, since 1998... one click deserves another...
I will always give 'when ready' unless I need you to go now, or you requested descent. I often here 'request descent', followed by 'confirm when ready to FLXXX', no actually you asked for it, I gave it, so no it's not when ready. If you want to program it in your box or get it in advance, say approaching descent point or TOD in XX trackmiles etc.
I agree with the others, once issued a descent clearance it's from where you are now to the level I chose, if there is something in the way, or between the levels that is my problem to resolve, ie control it. I don't care if you descend early, that's your problem. I of course try to avoid you descending late.
No need to readback, 'when ready'...
I will always give 'when ready' unless I need you to go now, or you requested descent. I often here 'request descent', followed by 'confirm when ready to FLXXX', no actually you asked for it, I gave it, so no it's not when ready. If you want to program it in your box or get it in advance, say approaching descent point or TOD in XX trackmiles etc.
I agree with the others, once issued a descent clearance it's from where you are now to the level I chose, if there is something in the way, or between the levels that is my problem to resolve, ie control it. I don't care if you descend early, that's your problem. I of course try to avoid you descending late.
No need to readback, 'when ready'...
Thanks Pirate, aaargghhhhh. That is what I was after.
And a big thank you to *Lancer* and triadic for castigating me for being verbose and adding "when ready" to my read back. I will however continue to add this to differentiate my clearance to descend "when ready" from an instruction to "descend" now. Thanks all the same. Call me recalcitrant but I also call "ready in turn" when it is not required. It does seem to help the nice man in the tower as last week they lined one up and cleared the next in line to take off whilst he was at the holding point, "in turn" helps oil the wheels just as "when ready" oils the wheels and clarifies the clearance, as mentioned by APMR above.
What the en route and the TAR? Well as happened a couple of months ago in ML the whole system grinds to a halt.
I really did not want to get in to the left/leaving pedantry as even the people who write the bloody manuals can't be consistent. It is interesting that different TCUs around the country seem to operate slightly differently with regard to expecting a "left FL180" call.
And a big thank you to *Lancer* and triadic for castigating me for being verbose and adding "when ready" to my read back. I will however continue to add this to differentiate my clearance to descend "when ready" from an instruction to "descend" now. Thanks all the same. Call me recalcitrant but I also call "ready in turn" when it is not required. It does seem to help the nice man in the tower as last week they lined one up and cleared the next in line to take off whilst he was at the holding point, "in turn" helps oil the wheels just as "when ready" oils the wheels and clarifies the clearance, as mentioned by APMR above.
What if the ATC radar was to now fail?
I really did not want to get in to the left/leaving pedantry as even the people who write the bloody manuals can't be consistent. It is interesting that different TCUs around the country seem to operate slightly differently with regard to expecting a "left FL180" call.