Pilot Industrial Awards
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Pilot Industrial Awards
It has been a while and I am entertained from time to time reading the pages of PPRUNE. I will make one thing very clear from the outset I will not post under a false name to hide my identity and what I publish is based upon fact.
The Awards covering pilots are published on our web page for all to see www.afap.org.au . These particular awards are the legal safety nets for pilots. In Victoria, Northern Territory and Australian Capital Territory they apply to any pilot and employer as they are ‘common rule’ documents. In all other states it will depend upon the company being a respondent or what we call a successor to the company who is already named.
The base rates are as follows:
Fixed wing single engine $29,182.00
Fixed Wing Multi engine $35,116.00
Helicopter
Single engine $40,448.00
Multi engine $43,344.00
If you are a casual then the hourly rates are:
Fixed wing single engine $45.60 per hour
Fixed Wing Multi engine $54.87 per hour
Helicopter
Single engine $66.16 per hour
Multi engine $70.85 per hour
As a permanent employee you also get other conditions such as 6 weeks (42 days) annual leave, Payment up to $1000.00 to purchase Loss of Licence insurance, meal allowances, sick leave etc. Your hours of work give you two days off in seven and the rest is in line with CAO part 48.
The Federation works for its members we are not perfect and have never claimed to be. We do not always win but we certainly do not always lose. If a pilot wants help in recovering their entitlements as a member it costs nothing for someone who joins we will provide assistance to enable you to claim back but we will not represent you in those circumstances. For everybody else there is the Department of Workplace Relations office in each State or pay for an experienced industrial lawyer.
Ultimately it is up to you if you want to be a professional pilot do not prostitute yourself as some do (John in The Australian today). The above is your minimum legal entitlement I cannot force you to take it but if you don’t the only winner is the crooks in our industry
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
[email protected]
The Awards covering pilots are published on our web page for all to see www.afap.org.au . These particular awards are the legal safety nets for pilots. In Victoria, Northern Territory and Australian Capital Territory they apply to any pilot and employer as they are ‘common rule’ documents. In all other states it will depend upon the company being a respondent or what we call a successor to the company who is already named.
The base rates are as follows:
Fixed wing single engine $29,182.00
Fixed Wing Multi engine $35,116.00
Helicopter
Single engine $40,448.00
Multi engine $43,344.00
If you are a casual then the hourly rates are:
Fixed wing single engine $45.60 per hour
Fixed Wing Multi engine $54.87 per hour
Helicopter
Single engine $66.16 per hour
Multi engine $70.85 per hour
As a permanent employee you also get other conditions such as 6 weeks (42 days) annual leave, Payment up to $1000.00 to purchase Loss of Licence insurance, meal allowances, sick leave etc. Your hours of work give you two days off in seven and the rest is in line with CAO part 48.
The Federation works for its members we are not perfect and have never claimed to be. We do not always win but we certainly do not always lose. If a pilot wants help in recovering their entitlements as a member it costs nothing for someone who joins we will provide assistance to enable you to claim back but we will not represent you in those circumstances. For everybody else there is the Department of Workplace Relations office in each State or pay for an experienced industrial lawyer.
Ultimately it is up to you if you want to be a professional pilot do not prostitute yourself as some do (John in The Australian today). The above is your minimum legal entitlement I cannot force you to take it but if you don’t the only winner is the crooks in our industry
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
[email protected]
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Thank you and welcome back, Lawrie.
I've "stickied" this thread.
If we invite any Award or entitlement questions from our PPRuNe users I trust you will be able to respond?
Never a truer word was said........... 
Please, if you have a question, check the Award first!
Again, thanks for your participation in PPRuNe.
Woomera
I've "stickied" this thread.
If we invite any Award or entitlement questions from our PPRuNe users I trust you will be able to respond?
"Ultimately it is up to you if you want to be a professional pilot do not prostitute yourself as some do (John in The Australian today). The above is your minimum legal entitlement I cannot force you to take it but if you don’t the only winner is the crooks in our industry."
Please, if you have a question, check the Award first!
Again, thanks for your participation in PPRuNe.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 5th Aug 2005 at 03:37.
Not enough $$$ ...
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Why is there a $2,896 difference between helicopter single and multi but a $5,934 (more than double) difference for fixed wing?
Almost any multi engine endorsement on helicopters will be a twin turbine endorsement (all? - I can't think of any piston multi-engine helicopter), and therefore extremely expensive in comparison to a twin piston fixed wing endorsement.
Sure, the starting rate there is higher, but we're looking at close to $50,000 just to get to CPL level, let alone Command Instrument Rating on top of that.
Is this a misprint, or is there some reasoning behind this that I'm not seeing?
Almost any multi engine endorsement on helicopters will be a twin turbine endorsement (all? - I can't think of any piston multi-engine helicopter), and therefore extremely expensive in comparison to a twin piston fixed wing endorsement.
Sure, the starting rate there is higher, but we're looking at close to $50,000 just to get to CPL level, let alone Command Instrument Rating on top of that.
Is this a misprint, or is there some reasoning behind this that I'm not seeing?
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Jesus wept.
The first question for Lawrie is "how come I only get this much more and HE gets this much more ........"
Us and them doesn't mean this group of pilots and that group of pilots.
Us and them is supposed to mean... all us pilots, and all them companies.
The first question for Lawrie is "how come I only get this much more and HE gets this much more ........"
Us and them doesn't mean this group of pilots and that group of pilots.
Us and them is supposed to mean... all us pilots, and all them companies.
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wishtobflying
What you are looking at is simply the facts of what various people should be paid at this moment in time. Nothing more. Nothing less. The most important thing right now is to ensure that people are actually paid these amounts.
No-one has said that they are fair or equitable. No-one has suggested that they provide a reasonable recompense for the work performed, or for the effort involved in achieving the qualifications required. No-one has suggested that they cannot be improved. I doubt very much that there was any particular reasoning behind the perceived discrepancy in the relationship between categories that you highlight. They are simply the result of a lengthy negotiation and legal process involving the AFAP, who represent some of the pilots in this country, and representatives of some of this country’s aviation employers. Doubtless the AFAP tried to get more, and the employer groups tried for less. Subsequent sets of negotiations may produce different relationships between employment categories.
They do however represent the minimum wages for all pilots in some states, and probably the majority of pilots in the others.
Let’s at least have people paid what they are legally entitled to, which is not happening in a large portion of the industry now, and worry about ironing out the perceived inequities in the detail later.
Snooze
(Disclaimer: not a member of, nor an apologist for the AFAP, one of the diaspora)
Thank you Snooze. I hope you don't mind me bolding your last two paragraphs?
Woomera
What you are looking at is simply the facts of what various people should be paid at this moment in time. Nothing more. Nothing less. The most important thing right now is to ensure that people are actually paid these amounts.
No-one has said that they are fair or equitable. No-one has suggested that they provide a reasonable recompense for the work performed, or for the effort involved in achieving the qualifications required. No-one has suggested that they cannot be improved. I doubt very much that there was any particular reasoning behind the perceived discrepancy in the relationship between categories that you highlight. They are simply the result of a lengthy negotiation and legal process involving the AFAP, who represent some of the pilots in this country, and representatives of some of this country’s aviation employers. Doubtless the AFAP tried to get more, and the employer groups tried for less. Subsequent sets of negotiations may produce different relationships between employment categories.
They do however represent the minimum wages for all pilots in some states, and probably the majority of pilots in the others.
Let’s at least have people paid what they are legally entitled to, which is not happening in a large portion of the industry now, and worry about ironing out the perceived inequities in the detail later.
Snooze
(Disclaimer: not a member of, nor an apologist for the AFAP, one of the diaspora)
Thank you Snooze. I hope you don't mind me bolding your last two paragraphs?
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 6th Aug 2005 at 05:20.
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If a pilot wants help in recovering their entitlements as a member it costs nothing for someone who joins we will provide assistance to enable you to claim back but we will not represent you in those circumstances. For everybody else there is the Department of Workplace Relations office in each State or pay for an experienced industrial lawyer.
I had an employer that stopped paying wages and refused to pay super and other entitlements to the pilots.
The union wouldn't do anything because; "It's your word against theirs (the employer)."
the DWR wouldn't act because; "we're busy and you pilots are payed a fortune so you're not a priority to us".
This isn't an isolated case, the fact is that the union isn't interested in GA pilots. I can't go further without naming and implicating, but words to this effect have been mentioned several times by senior members of the AFAP.
A agree that the crooks are winning, but with the help of union complacency. When was the last time anyone in GA saw a union rep come into the work place as is common in any other industry.
Just remember GA pilot's become airline pilot's, by then they've learnt to go elsewhere for representation.
Last edited by psycho joe; 6th Aug 2005 at 00:45.
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Lawrie, nice to see you posting here.
Readers, please note the reference in Lawrie's post that in the NT, ACT and in Victoria the award applies to all. Pity it is not so in the other states, but the good news is that in the three states that it is the law you will have the right to claim the proper rates.
Readers, please note the reference in Lawrie's post that in the NT, ACT and in Victoria the award applies to all. Pity it is not so in the other states, but the good news is that in the three states that it is the law you will have the right to claim the proper rates.
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In answer to Physco joe.I have said that we are not perfect but who in this industry is. My concern with your point is that for us to not pursue the claim would be a couple of factors at play. The first being what position are you classified in; to give you an example there are many pilots under the misunderstanding that if you hold the qualification you get paid for it. this is not always the situation if the employer classifies you as a Grade 2 instructor even though you hold a Grade 1 then the pay rate is at Grade 2. a similar situation in the ATPL allowance if you hold but are not required to use or exercise its privileges then you do not get the allowance.
If your case was clear cut that the job you were classified for was being performed then not paid I do find it a little hard to believe that frst we wouldn't do it or secondly even Department of Workplace Relations do not dismiss an application they may take a little longer dependent on their workload.
I certainly agree with your point about helping in the 'nursery' of flying this is something the Federation has always done and will continue do. With the exception of the split away Qantas overseas committee in 1981 (because they did not want their money spent on other than Qantas pilots) the Federation has actively supported helping GA members and for every bad story i am sure we can produce ten good results. One of our flaws is that we don't flaunt it like others perhaps and allow people with minimal info bag us. However we have survived the bad times and will continue to service our members who want our help.
Lawrie Cox
If your case was clear cut that the job you were classified for was being performed then not paid I do find it a little hard to believe that frst we wouldn't do it or secondly even Department of Workplace Relations do not dismiss an application they may take a little longer dependent on their workload.
I certainly agree with your point about helping in the 'nursery' of flying this is something the Federation has always done and will continue do. With the exception of the split away Qantas overseas committee in 1981 (because they did not want their money spent on other than Qantas pilots) the Federation has actively supported helping GA members and for every bad story i am sure we can produce ten good results. One of our flaws is that we don't flaunt it like others perhaps and allow people with minimal info bag us. However we have survived the bad times and will continue to service our members who want our help.
Lawrie Cox
Lawrie, thank you for the responses to date and for placing yourself in a position to answer some questions. I will put my hand up and say that I am one of the lucky ones who enjoy working for one of the respondents to the award who sees fit to reward its employees well. However I have no doubt that in this day and age of radical IR overhaul by the Federal Govt there is a need for a strong union to ensure at least the status quo remains.
The issues I raise are these....
* There is a significant CPL populous of an "older" age group (ie; married, second or even third career, family on the way or similar) that need to be able to take advantage of the advocacy of an industry group that will prove itself to be worthy and relevant to their needs. There are also a significant number of pilots who will never make the step into airline ops, and will remain at the "piston GA level" of the industry. While your recent gains in the NT are a fantastic indicator that things are progressing in the right direction, what steps has your organisation taken to filter this message down to the general CPL populous that membership will be a positive step toward the greater good?
* I talk to many who have joined the AFAP and while some will argue that I am wrong, I don't see the "coalface" being visited all that often by your organisation. Why? I would have thought that if an organisation (a Trade Union) of your calibre is to flourish and prosper in this climate of IR changes and uncertainty, then you must make strong cases for people to join and become members. I realise that because of GA pay rates and scales there is a smaller amount of "dues" coming in per member from the lower end GA sector, but wouldn't an increased membership allow more into the coffers to help promote further growth and advocacy, especially for those most vulnerable to exploitation? (I read of instructors on $12/flt hr etc).
* The GA industry isn't stupid, they do however need to be shown what benefit you can be to them in negotiating on their collective behalf. You'd possibly be surprised that many from GA watch your organisations attempts at collective bargaining (and see the outcomes that seem almost not worth the effort) on behalf of some Airline Pilot Groups and ask themselves "what good they could possibly do me if they cannot get substantial concessions for larger pilot bodies?" There is no suggestion that there should be any form of ambit claim well beyond the bounds of reason (forcing mass redundancies), but after reading and hearing much of late about pay and conditions of some employers in parts of the country where the GA Award is not common rule, then one could be forgiven for thinking that places like (high profile at the moment) Nth Qld are out of sight, out of mind and simply do not exist in your scope of ops. How do you intend to change this bearing in mind that you have stated in your opening post that the AFAP will provide assistance, yet not represent those affected? I was under the impression that as a Trade Union "representation" was part and parcel of membership during times of dispute with an employer, whether singularly or as a group?
I guess that many (including myself) have not joined to date due many factors.... personal relevance, lack of disposable income and apathy.
Regards,
OpsN
The issues I raise are these....
* There is a significant CPL populous of an "older" age group (ie; married, second or even third career, family on the way or similar) that need to be able to take advantage of the advocacy of an industry group that will prove itself to be worthy and relevant to their needs. There are also a significant number of pilots who will never make the step into airline ops, and will remain at the "piston GA level" of the industry. While your recent gains in the NT are a fantastic indicator that things are progressing in the right direction, what steps has your organisation taken to filter this message down to the general CPL populous that membership will be a positive step toward the greater good?
* I talk to many who have joined the AFAP and while some will argue that I am wrong, I don't see the "coalface" being visited all that often by your organisation. Why? I would have thought that if an organisation (a Trade Union) of your calibre is to flourish and prosper in this climate of IR changes and uncertainty, then you must make strong cases for people to join and become members. I realise that because of GA pay rates and scales there is a smaller amount of "dues" coming in per member from the lower end GA sector, but wouldn't an increased membership allow more into the coffers to help promote further growth and advocacy, especially for those most vulnerable to exploitation? (I read of instructors on $12/flt hr etc).
* The GA industry isn't stupid, they do however need to be shown what benefit you can be to them in negotiating on their collective behalf. You'd possibly be surprised that many from GA watch your organisations attempts at collective bargaining (and see the outcomes that seem almost not worth the effort) on behalf of some Airline Pilot Groups and ask themselves "what good they could possibly do me if they cannot get substantial concessions for larger pilot bodies?" There is no suggestion that there should be any form of ambit claim well beyond the bounds of reason (forcing mass redundancies), but after reading and hearing much of late about pay and conditions of some employers in parts of the country where the GA Award is not common rule, then one could be forgiven for thinking that places like (high profile at the moment) Nth Qld are out of sight, out of mind and simply do not exist in your scope of ops. How do you intend to change this bearing in mind that you have stated in your opening post that the AFAP will provide assistance, yet not represent those affected? I was under the impression that as a Trade Union "representation" was part and parcel of membership during times of dispute with an employer, whether singularly or as a group?
I guess that many (including myself) have not joined to date due many factors.... personal relevance, lack of disposable income and apathy.
Regards,
OpsN
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Opsnormal - Gold as usual
Question? If an operator in NSW is not a respondent to the award, then what are the options apart from departing for another job, do the employees have. I appluad the steps taken by Vic, NT and ACT to make the award wage manditory (full or part time). But unfortunately with the new IR reforms that will be in place shortly, things look like they will be getting far worse before they get better.
Question? If an operator in NSW is not a respondent to the award, then what are the options apart from departing for another job, do the employees have. I appluad the steps taken by Vic, NT and ACT to make the award wage manditory (full or part time). But unfortunately with the new IR reforms that will be in place shortly, things look like they will be getting far worse before they get better.
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I think for the AFAP it’s a matter of picking the battles they can win at the moment. It doesn’t make much sense to go up against companies that are not respondents to the GA Award where it is not common rule. Let’s concentrate our efforts to where the GA Award is common rule. There the AFAP has some legal might.
NAC was a great success story of what pilots and union representation can achieve but, ultimately it is up to the pilots. I hear that some of the new casual pilots at NAC are still working for free, not because the company won’t pay them accordingly but because they won’t put down hours worked or duty on their time sheets. Having said that, I believe NAC are the best paying non-turbine GA company in the NT.
The rest of the companies are either close to the GA Award, still in the dark ages or paying cash. It has to be the pilots that approach the AFAP for representation, not the other way around. However, every pilot should be made aware that discreet representation is available to them at very little cost. If more pilots become members, more could be helped.
It is up to us. Saying that there will always be someone out there that is willing to degrade conditions just makes it worse. It condones those who are doing it.
Lets all start by doing something about pay and conditions of the companies we’re in. At least where the GA Award is common rule. Then we can pressure the other States to follow suit. Eventually the GA Award can be overhauled to meet current living standards. Sh#t, flying might even be a viable profession.
Drshmoo, it starts by sticking together.
NAC was a great success story of what pilots and union representation can achieve but, ultimately it is up to the pilots. I hear that some of the new casual pilots at NAC are still working for free, not because the company won’t pay them accordingly but because they won’t put down hours worked or duty on their time sheets. Having said that, I believe NAC are the best paying non-turbine GA company in the NT.
The rest of the companies are either close to the GA Award, still in the dark ages or paying cash. It has to be the pilots that approach the AFAP for representation, not the other way around. However, every pilot should be made aware that discreet representation is available to them at very little cost. If more pilots become members, more could be helped.
It is up to us. Saying that there will always be someone out there that is willing to degrade conditions just makes it worse. It condones those who are doing it.
Lets all start by doing something about pay and conditions of the companies we’re in. At least where the GA Award is common rule. Then we can pressure the other States to follow suit. Eventually the GA Award can be overhauled to meet current living standards. Sh#t, flying might even be a viable profession.
If an operator in NSW is not a respondent to the award, then what are the options apart from departing for another job, do the employees have.
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Laurie,
Self congratulatory drivel.
FYI, Mine was a simple case of ME Twin IFR Charter. Perhaps it wasn't interesting enough for the Federation Magazine. Like I said, mine was not an isolated case. It was made clear to me that the Federation was, and is not interested in focusing resources on GA.
Why Not??....So that us ignorant masses may behold the awesome might that is the federation. 
if only
So after 5 yrs of union membership and several months of phone calls and letters, I was either not a member or not really asking for help.
you.
Self congratulatory drivel.
FYI, Mine was a simple case of ME Twin IFR Charter. Perhaps it wasn't interesting enough for the Federation Magazine. Like I said, mine was not an isolated case. It was made clear to me that the Federation was, and is not interested in focusing resources on GA.
One of our flaws is that we don't flaunt it like others perhaps and allow people with minimal info bag us.
if only
However we have survived the bad times and will continue to service our members who want our help
you.
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After working this industry for 16 years or so, I can honestly say I haven't seen anything overly encouraging from the AFAP. A bit like the dog that does a lot of barking but has no teeth.
I must admit though, that it will only have power if it has the members. And I'm afraid that we work in an industry full of lunch cutters. Very sad..........
Better off saving the bucks and get yourself a big time lawyer if sh_t hits the fan (or a good hitman
)
I must admit though, that it will only have power if it has the members. And I'm afraid that we work in an industry full of lunch cutters. Very sad..........
Better off saving the bucks and get yourself a big time lawyer if sh_t hits the fan (or a good hitman
)
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Hello, perhaps some experiences shared may help some of you with your wage issues. Having worked in an engineering trade for some 10 years, in government and private sectors, before becoming a pilot. I have found that all employers wish to own your skills for as little as possible. Government sectors have political issues to deal with so pay rates and entitlements are usually good and adhered to. However, private organisations who are signatories to the award still insist on trying to weasel out of paying entitlements.
Pilots ar not the odd ones out. We are just smaller in number and less visible to te rest of the country if entitlements are denied.
You have to make the decision to put everything on the line for what you believe in. If you are not prepared to do that, you should put up and shut up.
Most people who take on a shonky employer, (in any industry) lose their job or are harrassed into leaving.
Yes, this too is illegal. However none the less true.
It is possible to win against any shonky employer and gain your monetary entitlements back, however you usually need to start again, hopefully with a better employer.
I think it would be accurate to say that most employers fitting the category are in GA, have a high staff turnover, operate cross hired aircraft and are seasonal type operators (wet/dry season, tourism etc)
Most pilots employed in this situation, have been looking for next step up since day one and will not risk a year or two unemployed, for a couple of hundred or even thousand dollars.
I think that all employees in any field deserve an award and should have a union or association to back them up. However as individuals, we should have the rocks to stand for our rights if we believe in them.
This all may be all well and good, but there is a problem which is festering at a grass roots level in the aviation industry. New pilots are prepared to prostitute themselves and bring the entire GA industry standards lower.
Operators come and go in aviation, it is tough, but many should never have started in the first place, because they never had capital enough to undertake the enterprise in accordance with fair workplace practices or awards.
As each pilot who works for less moves on, they leave a legacy for the next one to equal. The employer then expects this from potential and current staff.
I believe that this problem partially begins at the flying school and then continues into the GA environment.
Most pilots I know from bugsmasher to 737, have mentioned stories of flying schools enhancing the realities of the industry in order to futher their own business. The rookie then walks out into the world with a debt of 40k plus looking for their first job. The flying school then tells them, its a bit tough right now, take what you can, even if the pay isn't good, until it gets better.(they will not say the industry isnt growing as rapidly as you were led to believe)
So the cycle continues. This is where aviation is completely different to other professions. Most(not all) budding pilots are given career advice/direction from other budding pilots(flying instructor) with no more idea than the student.
This does not happen for Drs, nurses, accountants, engineers etc.
The bottom line for all business is$$$ Flying schools have their goals to meet in the form of licences and ratings, which take a priority over industry realities and the students best interest. Industry conditions will be dictated by the lowest cost they can achieve.
I do not blame flying schools for the problem. The rookie and the operator ultimately determine the outcome, but many flying schools are definitely part of the problem.
Operators cannot pay below the awards if no one will work for them!! obvious isnt it?
Demand what you are entitled to, take any action neccessary to achieve this or don't work for that operator.
Alternatively follow the status quo, put up and shutup, be proud of the standards being set for the industry.
Pilots ar not the odd ones out. We are just smaller in number and less visible to te rest of the country if entitlements are denied.
You have to make the decision to put everything on the line for what you believe in. If you are not prepared to do that, you should put up and shut up.
Most people who take on a shonky employer, (in any industry) lose their job or are harrassed into leaving.
Yes, this too is illegal. However none the less true.
It is possible to win against any shonky employer and gain your monetary entitlements back, however you usually need to start again, hopefully with a better employer.
I think it would be accurate to say that most employers fitting the category are in GA, have a high staff turnover, operate cross hired aircraft and are seasonal type operators (wet/dry season, tourism etc)
Most pilots employed in this situation, have been looking for next step up since day one and will not risk a year or two unemployed, for a couple of hundred or even thousand dollars.
I think that all employees in any field deserve an award and should have a union or association to back them up. However as individuals, we should have the rocks to stand for our rights if we believe in them.
This all may be all well and good, but there is a problem which is festering at a grass roots level in the aviation industry. New pilots are prepared to prostitute themselves and bring the entire GA industry standards lower.
Operators come and go in aviation, it is tough, but many should never have started in the first place, because they never had capital enough to undertake the enterprise in accordance with fair workplace practices or awards.
As each pilot who works for less moves on, they leave a legacy for the next one to equal. The employer then expects this from potential and current staff.
I believe that this problem partially begins at the flying school and then continues into the GA environment.
Most pilots I know from bugsmasher to 737, have mentioned stories of flying schools enhancing the realities of the industry in order to futher their own business. The rookie then walks out into the world with a debt of 40k plus looking for their first job. The flying school then tells them, its a bit tough right now, take what you can, even if the pay isn't good, until it gets better.(they will not say the industry isnt growing as rapidly as you were led to believe)
So the cycle continues. This is where aviation is completely different to other professions. Most(not all) budding pilots are given career advice/direction from other budding pilots(flying instructor) with no more idea than the student.
This does not happen for Drs, nurses, accountants, engineers etc.
The bottom line for all business is$$$ Flying schools have their goals to meet in the form of licences and ratings, which take a priority over industry realities and the students best interest. Industry conditions will be dictated by the lowest cost they can achieve.
I do not blame flying schools for the problem. The rookie and the operator ultimately determine the outcome, but many flying schools are definitely part of the problem.
Operators cannot pay below the awards if no one will work for them!! obvious isnt it?
Demand what you are entitled to, take any action neccessary to achieve this or don't work for that operator.
Alternatively follow the status quo, put up and shutup, be proud of the standards being set for the industry.
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I hear ya psycho joe.
It was 93' when Impulses' current reign of terror on pilot conditions began.
Everyone was effectively sacked at midnight one day and appointed as shareholders of the pilot providing contracting companies (under duress) the next day.
A few of us were made redundant under very difficult circumstances, with no hope but too naively engage the help of the AFAP if we were to have any chance of re employment and/or seeing our quite substantial unpaid entitlements ever again.
Well that was the beginning of the end for us. The AFAP (T.O’C) lumped us with 1 and 1 only industrial officer who on the face of it seemed quite competent and confident in achieving a favourable outcome for us. Oh, were we wrong there. As soon as we walked into the commission, we were confronted by a QC, a Barrister and a couple of Solicitors. Our rep was tongue tied and bewildered for the rest of the proceedings and Gerry McGowan was rubbing his hands together with glee. Talk about inadequate preparation. The AFAP certainly can’t say they didn’t see this coming as it had been brewing for a few months prior to this event with everyone sh!tting there pants.
Well this went back and forward for a couple of years with the response from Impulse predominantly being “we don’t employ pilots apart from the CP and C&Ts so how can we re employ these guys, and in any case we are not respondents to the award so we don’t recognise any entitlements”.
We must have cost Gerry a large fortune in legal fees but he unfortunately got his way and held a guillotine over every pilots head from that time on. The AFAP on the other hand, got out of it quite cheap as they did sweet F.A. in return.
The AFAP were totally reckless in there handling of this case and information we obtained from an outgoing industrial officer suggested that we were pushing sh!t up hill with a pointy stick anyway as the AFAP still had many members in Impulse and didn’t want to rock the boat too hard. Well f@#k me, what do we pay our subs for if this is the attitude of our union.
You may be surprised to know that I have been “clean” of the AFAP for about 8 years now. If I had my day again, I would have gone straight to Gerry and avoided all the mess and misperceptions. Forget the AFAP, they have too many prejudices.
It was 93' when Impulses' current reign of terror on pilot conditions began.
Everyone was effectively sacked at midnight one day and appointed as shareholders of the pilot providing contracting companies (under duress) the next day.
A few of us were made redundant under very difficult circumstances, with no hope but too naively engage the help of the AFAP if we were to have any chance of re employment and/or seeing our quite substantial unpaid entitlements ever again.
Well that was the beginning of the end for us. The AFAP (T.O’C) lumped us with 1 and 1 only industrial officer who on the face of it seemed quite competent and confident in achieving a favourable outcome for us. Oh, were we wrong there. As soon as we walked into the commission, we were confronted by a QC, a Barrister and a couple of Solicitors. Our rep was tongue tied and bewildered for the rest of the proceedings and Gerry McGowan was rubbing his hands together with glee. Talk about inadequate preparation. The AFAP certainly can’t say they didn’t see this coming as it had been brewing for a few months prior to this event with everyone sh!tting there pants.
Well this went back and forward for a couple of years with the response from Impulse predominantly being “we don’t employ pilots apart from the CP and C&Ts so how can we re employ these guys, and in any case we are not respondents to the award so we don’t recognise any entitlements”.
We must have cost Gerry a large fortune in legal fees but he unfortunately got his way and held a guillotine over every pilots head from that time on. The AFAP on the other hand, got out of it quite cheap as they did sweet F.A. in return.
The AFAP were totally reckless in there handling of this case and information we obtained from an outgoing industrial officer suggested that we were pushing sh!t up hill with a pointy stick anyway as the AFAP still had many members in Impulse and didn’t want to rock the boat too hard. Well f@#k me, what do we pay our subs for if this is the attitude of our union.
You may be surprised to know that I have been “clean” of the AFAP for about 8 years now. If I had my day again, I would have gone straight to Gerry and avoided all the mess and misperceptions. Forget the AFAP, they have too many prejudices.
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Question for Lawrie.
What is involved in implementing ‘common rule’ status in the remaining States?
Are there any negative aspects to ‘common rule’ versus the ‘award plus respondent’ system?
Curious!
Snooze
What is involved in implementing ‘common rule’ status in the remaining States?
Are there any negative aspects to ‘common rule’ versus the ‘award plus respondent’ system?
Curious!
Snooze
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: australia
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well as it stands industrial relations is handled by the state governments. But since Johnny howard wants to make award rates come under federal power as part of his IR reforms then you may find award rates for pilots will be binding across the country (although I very much doubt this system will leave us any better off)
Otherwise the only way for the award to be recognised as common law would be for the remaining state governments to rule them as such. I wouldnt be holding my breath waiting for that to happen though thats for sure.
Otherwise the only way for the award to be recognised as common law would be for the remaining state governments to rule them as such. I wouldnt be holding my breath waiting for that to happen though thats for sure.