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310R's in the Bush

Old 18th Jul 2005, 01:53
  #21 (permalink)  
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520...does your 310 have a VG kit?

I'm not sure if it's my imagination but the 310r's with vortex generators seem easier to land smoothly than the clean versions.
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Old 18th Jul 2005, 02:10
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Gaunty,

Working on that. Must be a time on type issue.

TQ,

Some do and others don't, which keeps it interesting.
I find the one(s) with the VG kit easier too.

520.
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Old 18th Jul 2005, 03:05
  #23 (permalink)  

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It's great fun ain't it.

Vg if I understand how they work, as I've never flown one with it, clean up the airflow and keep it attached for longer and invite you to be able to land even slower ??

Modern aerodynamics have the VLJs and most of the small jets and some of the bigguns with Vref lower than your C310R.

The C310 R like the Baron, started life as smaller lighter ships with less HP and like topsy just grew.

Walk around your C310 and have a look at all of the straps around the rear fuselage/wing and double skins here and there tp pick up the extra weight.

That's why Cessna gave the C310R away in 1981 and concentrated on the Crusader.

You can do assymetrics in that with your feet on the floor, C182 type landing and TO speeds. drop gear and flap at CRZ speeds wthout any trim change, pull 60degree accelerated stalls one or both engines and it will simply fall out straight and level. etc etc .
Basically pilot proof and I would have no problems giving the keys to a proficient single pilot.

Have fun
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Old 18th Jul 2005, 13:51
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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How about that...

So why was the T303 so dismal sales wise compared to the 310?

And why did Cessna stop producing piston twins altogether??

Raytheon are still rolling out new Barons...


520.
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Old 18th Jul 2005, 14:26
  #25 (permalink)  

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Simple, the aircraft was stillborn as it was introduced at a time when there was a huge economic downturn in the US and then as a result of getting another gazillion dollar judgement against them just for having built a C172,, the worlds safest aircraft, they stopped piston production altogether.

An old VFR C172 out of maintenance, flown by a VFR pilot in IMC into the side of a hilll killing himself, son and next door neighbour and his child was somehow the fault of the aircraft manufacturer.
Those were the days when losing a loved one in a GA aircraft accident was the equivalent of winning the 1st Division Lotto Megadraw.

Why keep building USD$20,000,000 dollar liabilities.

Had they continued production it was to be pressurised to take advantage of its flat rated engines and would have beaten the pants off anything else in it's class.

They determined that the future for the company was in the mega succesful transport category performance Citations and the Caravan.

The Citation does everything safer, higher, further and faster than the King Air for the same or cheaper costs.
The Conquest was too popular and diverting sales from the bottom end Citations without any of the transport category type safety benefits.

There was no where to go in piston or turboprop twins in following that philosophy.

They wouldn't comtemplate starting the piston twin line until there was a legislated limit on aircraft age in regards to the liabilties.

When the time was right and legislation was passed, they restarted the single line..

Why are they still building Barons, dunno ask Raytheon. I guess people will buy a brand whatever.

Why do people buy King Airs, dunno beats me, they always have and still do cost more to operate than a Citation
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Old 18th Jul 2005, 15:00
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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1999 - 2000 price for a new, equipped Beech 58 was US$1,000,000.

Bet they don't sell too many.........

Dunno about your claim you can operate a C550 at lower seat/mile cost than a B200. You checked out JT15D engine overhaul costs lately?

As an exec aircraft, it's probably a matter of choise - and the C550 is much nicer - but if you need to worry about the cost you shouldn't be buying one.

But in general charter (excluding specialised operations) you probably need at least 16 plus bums aft in a turbine twin to be cost effective. As GAF discovered some years ago!

Woomera
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Old 18th Jul 2005, 15:28
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Gaunty

Quite so with the technique. The 210 is possibly the most prone to exhibit the characteristics of which you speak. New pilots on type can not know the vagaries of a particular airplanes W&B, without that they listen. Gone are the days I think, of a keen fellow delving into the very unhelpful manual of an old Cessna to do a page of mathematics to estabish a MAC. Only to find that the only benefit was practice as the Elevator Trim Indicators particular relationship with the angle of incidence of the servo tab can be arbitrary to say the least. Screw drive wear, engineer dyslexia when driving an inclinonimeter, cable stretch all add error. Oh, and the dicky little bent indicator needle dropping a notch or three on the trim wheel.

Its been a long time since I was told (and subsequently advised) that if the tail comes up your okay. (Cessna singles only)

Sorry! Senior moment, this is about light twins isn't it?

The purchase price of the Aztec and Commander are considerably lower than the 310 and Baron. Hmmm?

All the talk about landing gear strength is crap unless you know what you are talking about. 58 Barons have a problem with spar box cracks if operated away from tar, as the Bonanza. Once repaired thats it! Other consideration is the use of magnesium in a number of components. It does not like salt air. There has been a SB requiring expensive replacement of elevator skins on some serial numbers. And wing bolts. Spar box and wing bolt status must be established before purchase. As for the rest its the same as the 310, the odd tie rod end breaking, bushings, shims and rigging. Occasional shock strut seals. The odd flap motor or gear motor gearbox giving out. (O/H times also to be checked pre-purchase).

Then again, what am I saying? Aeroplanes are all expensive.

I must admit to a chuckle over the previous posters advocating VGs for the 402. The grief that bright idea caused!

And Gaunty, I am sure you know the old shoe slide followed by a lasso type catch of the Baron rudder lock. Saves on chiropractor expenses.

Last edited by Spotlight; 18th Jul 2005 at 20:20.
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 00:01
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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.... As for STOL, well you can get vortex generators for them and they are simpler to operate than the PA31 and I would think last longer with a lower boost level...
I'm not sure that the VG kit can be utilised for the higher take-off wgt when flying with the latest version of the SIDS modded spars. I know that we now cannot use ours, but I believe that may be related to getting the full life out of the modded spar... ie; using the VG kit to get the (3342kg?) mtow on a SIDS modified 402 shortens the spar life... so I am led to believe by our maint controller. 'Tis a pity, that is a more than useful gain.

I agree about being not as "highly strung" boostwise as a PA31.

520, I flew Daisy last year when she was brought to Alice for a visit. I hadn't flown one, lest a stubbie, for going on two years. The poor buggah in the RHS (G'day mate....) showed remarkable restraint when I started to flare around the same ht as a PA31..... with the resultant "I choose to stop flying...... NOW" arrival. Caught on video no less.... . Very humbling. Suggest leaving a trickle of power on through the flare and onto the ground, but not somewhere like Bulman.

They have a vulnerability around the construction of the nose gear support tunnel if operated on very rough surfaces, like many aircraft.

OpsN.
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 03:24
  #29 (permalink)  

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Spotlight

It's all a bit like comparing the merits of an Alvis drop head coupe a very sexy car with those fabulous Lucas P100 headlamps and with a Bentley blower coupe not nearly as pretty but very quick in a straight line.

Had the pleasure of the Alvis not so long ago, it was very much fun, but was even more impressed with the comfort and smoothness of my new Volvo on the way home.
Now where did I leave my zimmer frame.

BTW the Cessna's that we ordered new had that dinky rudder lock lever next to the rudder.
An unlocked Cessna rudder left to bang about in the breeze is a very expensive exercise indeed.
One flick and she's locked.
Much safer than those Heath Robinson thingyshad to remember to remove and the instant you applied any aft stick it unlocks automatically and every one does a "full and free" as part of their prestart checks don't they.

That was then this is now.

The game is over for these types as of about now if you have followed my comments in another thread.

Whatever the owners paid for it or think that it is worth, try Sims metal for the latest scrap Ally price X approx empty weight for the real value.

Woomera it's your turn now.

1999 - 2000 price for a new, equipped Beech 58 was US$1,000,000.
it's even more now and a bloody good reason why revenue rates for these types should be around $1,000 ph PLUS.
The rates that are actually being charged is why that part of the GA industry is doomed unless they get their act together real soon.


Bet they don't sell too many.........
they do actually, not as many as they would like, but enough to make it worthwhile.
There is still one born every minute you know.

The new VLJs (Eclipse etc.) that are fast approaching at similar prices will probably do em in.

Dunno about your claim you can operate a C550 at lower seat/mile cost than a B200. You checked out JT15D engine overhaul costs lately?
It's true and not so long ago Cessna ran a programme offering to pay the difference in operating costs (inc O/H etc) between your turboprop, ANY turboprop except the Conquest for 5 years and the new Citation if you bought one instead.
They sold a heap and never wrote a single cheque.

Now if you are going to compare the cost of superannuated crap v current model or new that's a more complex argument, but still comes down on the side of the Citation, but we are talking about the US not the way we "practise our hobbies" on our passengers in Oz.

As an exec aircraft, it's probably a matter of choise - and the C550 is much nicer - but if you need to worry about the cost you shouldn't be buying one.
true but they do worry about the cost a lot and we spent heaps more time with the accountants than the pilots, who had to leave the room while the grown ups were talking.
One of the problems with the older pilots was that if they hadn't gotten around to doing their ATPL or felt a bit intimidated by the jet, guess which way they wanted to go.
Why, escaped me as the Cessna philosophy was and still is that as the worlds No1 Business Airline they design them to be owner flown.

But in general charter (excluding specialised operations) you probably need at least 16 plus bums aft in a turbine twin to be cost effective. As GAF discovered some years ago!
circular argument see point 1.
If they were charging the real cost for everything in the inventory you dont need any more bums than the aircraft is actually designed for.
And it's not 12 bums in a KingAir or 10 in a Conquest or Citation.

The last time I looked the pax load factor for the types in the US is around 3-4 across the fleet, whether you include the owner pilot or it is crewed.

It is only in OZ and other third world countries that we try to make them be something they are simply are not, "airliners".

Your serve I believe

Oh,.... come in bushy the doors not locked.
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 08:25
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Know the type you mean...

Hey there Ops,

Can't say I've ever had the pleasure of taking Daisy for a spin, though I have been offered in the past...

All too familiar with those "I choose to stop flying.....NOW" arrivals, too. Definitely an aircraft with VERY unique handling characteristics, of sorts.

All good fun though.

Will hopefully find a spare few hours one of these days to catch up.

Cheers mate.

520.
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Old 19th Jul 2005, 10:19
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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RE -Vortex gen kits and increased max weight kits ,wing tips etc on Cessna aircraft that are covered by a SIDs program.

The fitment of any of the above alters the aircraft from the original type certificate and renders Cessna Life limits basically invalid.Its then the resposibility of the STC holder or aircraft operator to provide an alternate program which is a huge ask (I have already seen a few A/C with kits removed although you would then have to ask what effect this has on fatigue life).

Apparently all aging aircraft will have to have a program in place soon and if the manufacturer does not provide it the operator will have to.The Cessna program when printed out is the size of a small telephone directory!
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Old 20th Jul 2005, 09:17
  #32 (permalink)  


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I flew "Daisy" many years before it was given that name. It was an old machine even then, but I'm sure that's not the reason that it didn't like the environmental conditions in PNG...
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Old 20th Jul 2005, 12:39
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Devil

520, I flew Daisy last year when she was brought to Alice for a visit. I hadn't flown one, lest a stubbie, for going on two years. The poor buggah in the RHS (G'day mate....) showed remarkable restraint when I started to flare around the same ht as a PA31..... with the resultant "I choose to stop flying...... NOW" arrival. Caught on video no less.... . Very humbling. Suggest leaving a trickle of power on through the flare and onto the ground, but not somewhere like Bulman.
Ahhh, but what Ops forgot to mention was who was doing the videoing....

From what I could tell from the back seat, Daisy is a very nice machine. Pity 'bout that landing. I know Wiz got a personal guided tour sightseeing over the Western Macs that day.
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Old 20th Jul 2005, 13:13
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Vortex generators

Westaussielame,

I quite often find myself thinking about that (what you've said regarding spar fatigue). Particularly when I enter a CU cloud and I see the tip tanks wobbling about in my peripheral as the wing flexes...oh what a feeling!

I wonder what's going to happen before ANYONE, be it the manufacturer or operators speaks up and says "hey guys, do ya think maybe the spars are getting a tad tired....?"

As handy as they are, I wouldn't have thought the VG kits reduce fatigue, lifespan or spar strength...


520.
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Old 20th Jul 2005, 14:48
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Why hasn't the Caravan been thrown in as a machine that is capable of meeting the requirements for this job. Does it have to be a twin that uses technology that is out of date????

Woolie
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Old 21st Jul 2005, 10:05
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Re spar lives

cont-520,
The spars are lifed on most Cessna twins and can be replaced when time expired (huge job).
The lifes vary depending on model.The fuselage is even lifed on some ie C-421.

Last edited by Westaussielame; 21st Jul 2005 at 10:20.
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Old 21st Jul 2005, 13:28
  #37 (permalink)  

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The solution is simple, quit throwing good money after bad and use it as woolie suggests to buy a Caravan to do the C206/210 work and the PC12 for the piston twin work.

Flogging a dead horse is well.....flogging a dead horse.

When I win the Lotto I am going to do what a discerning Sydney gentleman has done, buy the nicest cleanest C310R I can find put it the shop for a top to toe bare metal restoration to original mint condition, new transparencies the lot, park it in it's own airconditioned hangar and wheel it out on the odd Sunday, maybe just to look at it and give it a bit of a polish, show it in the vintage concours d'elegance or go for a trip to the vineyards for lunch, good wine and a snooze then dawdle home the next day.
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Old 27th Jul 2005, 16:26
  #38 (permalink)  
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Gaunty n Wooly..thanks for your suggestion on the Caravan and PC-12.

The answer to this is... I don't have US$650g's for a used Caravan Cargomaster, or $1.5m plus for a PC-12.

Update on the Aztec...found one for Aus$90k's from David O'Connor in Melbourne. Guess this is it!
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Old 28th Jul 2005, 10:41
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I know of an organisation that bought a pc12, for six million plus, then tried to make it pay for some years,and sold it for 2.5 million.l
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Old 28th Jul 2005, 11:48
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Votex Generators on a C310, C402, PA31 etc are like fat tires and a V8 in an FJ Holden. It may go faster, with far less safety but it's still an FJ Holden and 1955 technology.

Whatever your aviation task, you need to buy an aircraft that the manufacturer guarantees will do the job.

Your problem Jonjie is that Phils aviation will never pay the true commercial rate for you to invest in the right equipment and gain a return on capital.

Geezus - they getting $90K for an Ashtruck these days..... or do you get two for the price of one??? For that price I'd be looking for chrome spinners, sheep skin seat covers, mag wheels and oil cooled choke cables!

Woomera
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