QF Psychometric Testing
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QF Psychometric Testing
Can someone out there please explain to me why the QF Psychometric test is so important?
Did the original Impulse Pilots now Jetstar Pilots have to pass the Psychometric test before QF swallowed them up?
Did the Australian Airlines Pilots pass the QF Psychometric testing before QF Swallowed them up?
I am sure this didn't occur.
I am also certain that in the above two Pilot groups, that is ex Australian and ex Impulse, there are Pilots that have not passed the Psycometric Test.
Does this make them a poor Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.
At the moment an interested Pilot can complete a course that will 80% guarantee they will pass this test.
Does this make them a bad Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.
VirginBlue Pilots as far as I am aware don't have to pass any Psychometric testing. Does this make them a poor Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.
Is flying a Jet aeroplane that much harder than flying a Turbo Prop aircraft? No it is not. Many people I know who have missed out on the QF Psycho. test have gone on to fly with Virgin, Cathay, Ansett in the past, Dragonair, Emirates and several other carriers around the World.
As QF Regional Pilot I have history with the Company and have climbed the ladder to my current position. I received a rejection letter yesterday via email to say that I was unsuccessful at the application stage. So I hear, Jetstar take into account any previous Psycho. test to cull applicants. There has also been a number of other people rejected because of this process.
QF and Jetstar you both need to update your application process and bring it into the 21st century. Both of you are missing out on good quality people/Pilots.
Did the original Impulse Pilots now Jetstar Pilots have to pass the Psychometric test before QF swallowed them up?
Did the Australian Airlines Pilots pass the QF Psychometric testing before QF Swallowed them up?
I am sure this didn't occur.
I am also certain that in the above two Pilot groups, that is ex Australian and ex Impulse, there are Pilots that have not passed the Psycometric Test.
Does this make them a poor Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.
At the moment an interested Pilot can complete a course that will 80% guarantee they will pass this test.
Does this make them a bad Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.
VirginBlue Pilots as far as I am aware don't have to pass any Psychometric testing. Does this make them a poor Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.
Is flying a Jet aeroplane that much harder than flying a Turbo Prop aircraft? No it is not. Many people I know who have missed out on the QF Psycho. test have gone on to fly with Virgin, Cathay, Ansett in the past, Dragonair, Emirates and several other carriers around the World.
As QF Regional Pilot I have history with the Company and have climbed the ladder to my current position. I received a rejection letter yesterday via email to say that I was unsuccessful at the application stage. So I hear, Jetstar take into account any previous Psycho. test to cull applicants. There has also been a number of other people rejected because of this process.
QF and Jetstar you both need to update your application process and bring it into the 21st century. Both of you are missing out on good quality people/Pilots.
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Well said that man!
Unfortunately, this is just another way to cull the large number of applicants to a more manageable side.
Along with the HSC requirement, having your ATPL subjects, minimum hours, etc...
Whilst these are not prerequisites to being a good pilot, they do test ones determination and ability to equip themselves effectively. Those who want it bad enough will succeed.
Cheers, HH.
Unfortunately, this is just another way to cull the large number of applicants to a more manageable side.
Along with the HSC requirement, having your ATPL subjects, minimum hours, etc...
Whilst these are not prerequisites to being a good pilot, they do test ones determination and ability to equip themselves effectively. Those who want it bad enough will succeed.
Cheers, HH.
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Well a rejection letter is never easy to take, whatever the reason.
But be reassured: yes there's a big difference between jets and turbo-props. JETS ARE MUCH EASIER! And the simulator is an ideal place (and far more accurate place) to find out how a pilot works as a crew member and potential commander. I'd back actual practice vs. psych testing any day.
It has always seemed weird to me that Qantas (and AIPA) are happy to reap the rewards of selling seats on any aircraft with the White Rat on the tail, implicitly telling the punters that the whole thing has the QF seal of approval....but in fact there's an apartheid system operating as far as the pilots go with "separate development" being the ongoing order of the day.
Do QF really want to explain to the SLF that the Captain who flew them on their Dash 8 isn't really Qantas material?
I can't recall total numbers etc but my recollection is that TAA incorporated pretty much all of the ex-AQ pilots without too many problems. I might be wrong of course, but giving the ex DC-3 people a shot at it was alt least humane. Of course that was in a more enlightened time under real airline management.
But be reassured: yes there's a big difference between jets and turbo-props. JETS ARE MUCH EASIER! And the simulator is an ideal place (and far more accurate place) to find out how a pilot works as a crew member and potential commander. I'd back actual practice vs. psych testing any day.
It has always seemed weird to me that Qantas (and AIPA) are happy to reap the rewards of selling seats on any aircraft with the White Rat on the tail, implicitly telling the punters that the whole thing has the QF seal of approval....but in fact there's an apartheid system operating as far as the pilots go with "separate development" being the ongoing order of the day.
Do QF really want to explain to the SLF that the Captain who flew them on their Dash 8 isn't really Qantas material?
I can't recall total numbers etc but my recollection is that TAA incorporated pretty much all of the ex-AQ pilots without too many problems. I might be wrong of course, but giving the ex DC-3 people a shot at it was alt least humane. Of course that was in a more enlightened time under real airline management.
Psychometrics are the latest fad in recruiting. You can bet that QF have paid somebody a heap of cash to do the testing. Its a great way to sift a large quantity of applicants.
Only one slight teensy weensy ickle problem or two. First the tests can be learned, and anyone who knows what an employer is looking for and how the tests are constructed, can mimic the necessary traits to pass. We used to be taught how to do this at MBA school.
Aptitude testing BTW is perfectly OK, however I would have thought that if you had the necessary licences and experience that would not be an issue.
However the real problem is that personality is not stable over time. Differences are measurable in two years. hence the gregarious, tenacious problem solver can become a know it all SOB in two years.
Furthermore, the personality tests contain traps to supposedly calculate a "lie score". However even the reliability of this is suspect. For example, you can make an argument that an applicant prepared to lie is highly motivated and therefore employable.
And of course the final problem with the "personality" aspect of these tests:- There is to my knowledge no peer reviewed research that shows that there is any correlation whatsoever between personality test scores and job performance, either short term or long term. If there was, then American companies would not be losing discrimination cases over promotions supposedly based on "pyschometric test results".
Obvious question : How many Jewish or non Anglo Saxon pilots does Qantas have? If the answer is zero, go figure.
Translation: Do you really want to work for a company that believes this bull****?
Do your course by all means, but do it under a false name just in case.
Only one slight teensy weensy ickle problem or two. First the tests can be learned, and anyone who knows what an employer is looking for and how the tests are constructed, can mimic the necessary traits to pass. We used to be taught how to do this at MBA school.
Aptitude testing BTW is perfectly OK, however I would have thought that if you had the necessary licences and experience that would not be an issue.
However the real problem is that personality is not stable over time. Differences are measurable in two years. hence the gregarious, tenacious problem solver can become a know it all SOB in two years.
Furthermore, the personality tests contain traps to supposedly calculate a "lie score". However even the reliability of this is suspect. For example, you can make an argument that an applicant prepared to lie is highly motivated and therefore employable.
And of course the final problem with the "personality" aspect of these tests:- There is to my knowledge no peer reviewed research that shows that there is any correlation whatsoever between personality test scores and job performance, either short term or long term. If there was, then American companies would not be losing discrimination cases over promotions supposedly based on "pyschometric test results".
Obvious question : How many Jewish or non Anglo Saxon pilots does Qantas have? If the answer is zero, go figure.
Translation: Do you really want to work for a company that believes this bull****?
Do your course by all means, but do it under a false name just in case.
Last edited by Sunfish; 21st Jun 2005 at 06:01.
Psychometric testing is a product invented by psychologists, mainly to justify their existance and created a need for, u guessed it, psycholgists. Some will even admit it.
I recall reading a study by the US military, I think it waas the US Marines, the did a study where they used the best psychometric screening tools to select 50 perfect candidates and trained them in a task. They also selected another group of 50 candidates, at random and applied the same training to them.
The end result was that there was almost no difference in the outcome. Both groups performed to the same standard in the required task.
It boils down to psychologists wanting to quantify the un-quantifyable. A human cant be broken down into a series of stats and numberss.
I recall reading a study by the US military, I think it waas the US Marines, the did a study where they used the best psychometric screening tools to select 50 perfect candidates and trained them in a task. They also selected another group of 50 candidates, at random and applied the same training to them.
The end result was that there was almost no difference in the outcome. Both groups performed to the same standard in the required task.
It boils down to psychologists wanting to quantify the un-quantifyable. A human cant be broken down into a series of stats and numberss.
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This probably won't appease Tofasttofly who seems rather upset, and I guess understandably so, with having received the dreaded "Thanks, but no thanks" letter. However, some others may find the following of some minor interest. It appeared in a mainline newsletter late last year.
Why are experienced pilots not given the chance to show their practical abilities in the simulator and interview simply because they cannot pass an "airy-fairy" psychometric test?
The competencies assessed by the psychometric test are, in fact, very practical and very specific to the role of a Qantas pilot. They include such things as decision-making, communicating, teamwork, spatial orientation, systems operating, situational awareness and analytical and reasoning abilities.
The sim ride and panel interview are highly valuable tools but they have their limitations and do not necessarily paint the full picture on all of the relevant competencies. A pilot who does not demonstrate the required standard in the psychometric test therefore represents an unacceptable level of doubt in a highly competitive process.
The sim and interview assessments require a significant outlay of money, time and effort by both Qantas and the candidate. It would be irresponsible to expend these resources where the psychometric result has raised a significant doubt about the candidate's abilities. However, if the candidate has a good resume and work history we have the option of offering a repeat attempt at the psychometric test to allow for the effects of an "off" day, unfamiliarity with the test format etc.
Anyway, that's the official line of QF recruiting, for what it's worth. Some of you won't be at all sympathetic, but that's your right.
For those of you yet to embark on the weird and wonderful journey of the QF recruitment process, a word of warning - you may be unsuccessful. You too may fail the psychometric test. And whether you agree with psychometric testing or not, QF use it in their recruiting process. So come to grips with that fact now, prepare yourself as completely as you possibly can, and give it your very best shot. And just because you have an Aus passport/CPL/ATPL, you do not have a birth right to a job with QF mainline. It's their train set afterall..............
Tofasttofly - have you called recruiting? What did they say?
ur2 - just exactly what is a 'rocket surgeon'??
Why are experienced pilots not given the chance to show their practical abilities in the simulator and interview simply because they cannot pass an "airy-fairy" psychometric test?
The competencies assessed by the psychometric test are, in fact, very practical and very specific to the role of a Qantas pilot. They include such things as decision-making, communicating, teamwork, spatial orientation, systems operating, situational awareness and analytical and reasoning abilities.
The sim ride and panel interview are highly valuable tools but they have their limitations and do not necessarily paint the full picture on all of the relevant competencies. A pilot who does not demonstrate the required standard in the psychometric test therefore represents an unacceptable level of doubt in a highly competitive process.
The sim and interview assessments require a significant outlay of money, time and effort by both Qantas and the candidate. It would be irresponsible to expend these resources where the psychometric result has raised a significant doubt about the candidate's abilities. However, if the candidate has a good resume and work history we have the option of offering a repeat attempt at the psychometric test to allow for the effects of an "off" day, unfamiliarity with the test format etc.
Anyway, that's the official line of QF recruiting, for what it's worth. Some of you won't be at all sympathetic, but that's your right.
For those of you yet to embark on the weird and wonderful journey of the QF recruitment process, a word of warning - you may be unsuccessful. You too may fail the psychometric test. And whether you agree with psychometric testing or not, QF use it in their recruiting process. So come to grips with that fact now, prepare yourself as completely as you possibly can, and give it your very best shot. And just because you have an Aus passport/CPL/ATPL, you do not have a birth right to a job with QF mainline. It's their train set afterall..............
Tofasttofly - have you called recruiting? What did they say?
ur2 - just exactly what is a 'rocket surgeon'??
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"teamwork, systems"
I dont remember that being included in the Stage 2 testing?
If they wanted to cull people, why not just raise their minimum requirements?
OK.
So the first part of the test is co-ordination. I think that with around 1500 hours flying, you will have gained some co-ordination. This 'airy-fairy' psych test failed to see a lack of co-ordination in some applicants I know of. People that actually failed the test, but got through cause they knew someone. One particular person was so clumsy, that she/he used to trip over herself/himself all the time. Great commander potential. He/she was also a very poor pilot.
Now what comes next, Englush testing. Well, I think anybody that can pass those intrinsic CASA exams bloody well passes an English exam as well.
Maths, OK. might be something here. But seriously not to the extent that they impose. Lets not go overboard guys. Whats an FMC for anyways??
Cubes?? What the hell does that have to do with flying straight and level. This should be used for Military ops more likely, or sending a monkey into space.
The rest is pretty fair. Psych is abit of bull too. The questions are too broad and could be misinterperated for too many situations.
Thats cuts down a 5 1/2 hour test to down to 2. Half the price perhaps.
All it comes down to these days is, he who has most money wins. If I had 800 dollars to throw away on books and tutoring, will I pass?
Please tell me who else makes you pay for an interview besides the Qantas group??
And they still need a merger to survive...Maybe they need a psych on their own management team. Ohhh sorry, that product was not tested on animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont remember that being included in the Stage 2 testing?
If they wanted to cull people, why not just raise their minimum requirements?
OK.
So the first part of the test is co-ordination. I think that with around 1500 hours flying, you will have gained some co-ordination. This 'airy-fairy' psych test failed to see a lack of co-ordination in some applicants I know of. People that actually failed the test, but got through cause they knew someone. One particular person was so clumsy, that she/he used to trip over herself/himself all the time. Great commander potential. He/she was also a very poor pilot.
Now what comes next, Englush testing. Well, I think anybody that can pass those intrinsic CASA exams bloody well passes an English exam as well.
Maths, OK. might be something here. But seriously not to the extent that they impose. Lets not go overboard guys. Whats an FMC for anyways??
Cubes?? What the hell does that have to do with flying straight and level. This should be used for Military ops more likely, or sending a monkey into space.
The rest is pretty fair. Psych is abit of bull too. The questions are too broad and could be misinterperated for too many situations.
Thats cuts down a 5 1/2 hour test to down to 2. Half the price perhaps.
All it comes down to these days is, he who has most money wins. If I had 800 dollars to throw away on books and tutoring, will I pass?
Please tell me who else makes you pay for an interview besides the Qantas group??
And they still need a merger to survive...Maybe they need a psych on their own management team. Ohhh sorry, that product was not tested on animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Can someone please send this thread to Geoff D, Chris M, Alan J and Chris M's counterpart in Jetstar.
I know at the end of the day it is QF's train set and they can play any way they so choose.
Twelve months prior to the QF takeover of Impulse, their Pilots where flying B1900s. What testing did these guys pass to fly a Jet aeroplane owned by Qantas?
Don't you think QF might finally take care of their Dash 8 Pilots? We are human and have desires and dreams too. Over the years there has been so many rumours about how certain people in power how they have rorted the system to get a friend or family member in. Why can't professional courtesy prevail here and give us a fair go...
At the end of the day when Australian Airlines was taken over by QF the Dash 8 pilots came in the package. No consideration for our future ever occured. In recent years the Dash 8 ranks have been loosing so many well qualified Pilots to other Airlines. 90 Pilot lost in 18 months.
I know at the end of the day it is QF's train set and they can play any way they so choose.
Twelve months prior to the QF takeover of Impulse, their Pilots where flying B1900s. What testing did these guys pass to fly a Jet aeroplane owned by Qantas?
Don't you think QF might finally take care of their Dash 8 Pilots? We are human and have desires and dreams too. Over the years there has been so many rumours about how certain people in power how they have rorted the system to get a friend or family member in. Why can't professional courtesy prevail here and give us a fair go...
At the end of the day when Australian Airlines was taken over by QF the Dash 8 pilots came in the package. No consideration for our future ever occured. In recent years the Dash 8 ranks have been loosing so many well qualified Pilots to other Airlines. 90 Pilot lost in 18 months.
Sprucegoose
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Yeh ..how many full blooded aboriginal captains does kwantas have ?.....
I reckon I can guess....
Cheers, HH.
Woomera et al...
Anyone know where the "QF Deep Throat HR" (or something like that) thread went?
That was just starting to get interesting!!!
TL
Anyone know where the "QF Deep Throat HR" (or something like that) thread went?
That was just starting to get interesting!!!
TL
Nunc est bibendum
Sunfish, how 'recent' is a 'latest fad'. QF have been doing a psych test on wannabe's since at least 1989!! That's sixteen years ago now! It's hung around an awful long time for a fad.
It'd be interesting to hear from some of the other QF drivers about when they remember doing thier tests. Mine was '90 but I know a bunch of guys did them in '89. Any earlier than that?
(Not saying that I agree with it, just pointing out how long QF have been standing by it).
It'd be interesting to hear from some of the other QF drivers about when they remember doing thier tests. Mine was '90 but I know a bunch of guys did them in '89. Any earlier than that?
(Not saying that I agree with it, just pointing out how long QF have been standing by it).
"They include such things as decision-making, communicating, teamwork, spatial orientation, systems operating, situational awareness and analytical and reasoning abilities. "
These are very nice things to measure because they are aptitudes and no one can argue with that.
However, what else is QF testing?
Keg, this stuff has been around since at least the second world war. I'm sure there is a lot of well researched evidence regarding aptitudes and pilot performance.
However the question remains" How many Jewish and non anglo - saxon pilots does QF have?
These are very nice things to measure because they are aptitudes and no one can argue with that.
However, what else is QF testing?
Keg, this stuff has been around since at least the second world war. I'm sure there is a lot of well researched evidence regarding aptitudes and pilot performance.
However the question remains" How many Jewish and non anglo - saxon pilots does QF have?
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I was talking to a psychologist recently, who have been involved extensively in psychometric testing (not at QF). He thought it wasn't worth the paper/computer it's done on, and it makes no difference to the outcome. I believe him.
I asked another psychologist and she thought it was a load of rubbish too.
So, if the profession that developed it thinks it is rubbish, it probably is. It's not in their interest to bash it, is it.
I asked another psychologist and she thought it was a load of rubbish too.
So, if the profession that developed it thinks it is rubbish, it probably is. It's not in their interest to bash it, is it.
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It was reputed for many years Sunfish that Catholics were persona non grata. Sons of C of E professional or public service types was the prevailing demograph. Probably not a long bow to draw that FMs had a strong presence at different levels of the company.