Darwin STAR's
Thread Starter
Darwin STAR's
Well just to be different Darwin have done it again.
The standard procedure with their new STAR's goes something like this.
at 150nm Darwin, Brisbane centre says from Darwin approach on fisrt contact with approach expect FEEGS arrival RAGER transition.
So what you might say thats normal. Well I have never prior to 70nm been transfered to Darwin approach RAGER is at 80nm so how are we ever going to be issued with a STAR and a transition that is at 80 nm unless issued by centre, which of course is what happens in every other part of Australia???
Why why why can't they simply do what every one else does and issue us with a star at 150nm or there abouts and be done with it???[QUOTE]
The standard procedure with their new STAR's goes something like this.
at 150nm Darwin, Brisbane centre says from Darwin approach on fisrt contact with approach expect FEEGS arrival RAGER transition.
So what you might say thats normal. Well I have never prior to 70nm been transfered to Darwin approach RAGER is at 80nm so how are we ever going to be issued with a STAR and a transition that is at 80 nm unless issued by centre, which of course is what happens in every other part of Australia???
Why why why can't they simply do what every one else does and issue us with a star at 150nm or there abouts and be done with it???[QUOTE]
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RENURPP I think you have a valid complaint:
You'll note though the
Peronally I'd call "Brisbane Centre" to attempt informal resolution, otherwise write directly to [email protected] the Head ATC, might be best to send through company channels. It should be fixed if it's causing problems. Could just be a Civil<->Military comm issue of course. Good luck.
MATS 6.2.5.8 A STAR Clearance should be issued prior to the commencement of descent to assist in planning and to avoid increasing cockpit workload.
AIP ENR 1.5 12.3.3 A STAR may be commenced at any point from a transition fix to the arrival fix
Bottums Up
Then of course there's "On first contact with Darwin Approach expect Feegs Arrival, Agust transition", from BN CNTR.
And on first contact with Darwin Appch, at 50DME, with Agust some 30nm behind, "cancel star track direct to HWS".
How can one cancel a star that hasn't been issued?
And on first contact with Darwin Appch, at 50DME, with Agust some 30nm behind, "cancel star track direct to HWS".
How can one cancel a star that hasn't been issued?
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exactly
expect pebbl east two novem transition
first contact with DN...aaaah track direct DN this stage
then...vectored out to the west where the Star would have taken me anyway.
Must admit though next flight they issued me the star and gave me track shortening very soon after
expect pebbl east two novem transition
first contact with DN...aaaah track direct DN this stage
then...vectored out to the west where the Star would have taken me anyway.
Must admit though next flight they issued me the star and gave me track shortening very soon after
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Other quirks...
Not to hijack the thread, but more to emphasise and query these various non-standard differences and quirks which the Darwin ATC crew seem to have:
What has a tower controller got to gain by making me wait 14 minutes at the holding point in a low wake turbulence category aircraft? Especially when I declare that I'm 'ready immediate' and there are not one, but TWO opportunities to launch me before arriving traffic.
In SY, ML, or BN, sure, congestion is an issue. But in DN? Hardly... sometimes it can seem like they do it just to irritate you and muck up your schedule.
Anyone else experienced this?
520.
What has a tower controller got to gain by making me wait 14 minutes at the holding point in a low wake turbulence category aircraft? Especially when I declare that I'm 'ready immediate' and there are not one, but TWO opportunities to launch me before arriving traffic.
In SY, ML, or BN, sure, congestion is an issue. But in DN? Hardly... sometimes it can seem like they do it just to irritate you and muck up your schedule.
Anyone else experienced this?
520.
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How about listening to RAAF ATC tell us for the last two years that they are telling BN CTR the duty runway in Darwin and the expected arrival at 160nm to run, yet every time i have been inbound to Darwin for those last two years BN CTR has to call up DN APPR when I ask them at around 100nm to run DN what tonight's arrival instructions might be.
How about after being told to 'expect' a particular STAR on Darwin, and self and colleague watching the miles to run tick by, so we ask when an 'expected' STAR that takes us off our cleared airway will actually turn into a clearance that we can follow?
Answer: You get your PEBBL STAR clearance to track via AGUST transition when AGUST is ten miles behind you
For those ATCO's that don't know what effect that has, try following these instructions on how to use your computer...
1. Save your file to the My Documents folder.
2. Turn on the computer.
Perhaps things would work a little better for you if the instructions had you turning the computer on first.
How about after being told to 'expect' a particular STAR on Darwin, and self and colleague watching the miles to run tick by, so we ask when an 'expected' STAR that takes us off our cleared airway will actually turn into a clearance that we can follow?
Answer: You get your PEBBL STAR clearance to track via AGUST transition when AGUST is ten miles behind you
For those ATCO's that don't know what effect that has, try following these instructions on how to use your computer...
1. Save your file to the My Documents folder.
2. Turn on the computer.
Perhaps things would work a little better for you if the instructions had you turning the computer on first.
Last edited by ITCZ; 12th Jun 2005 at 01:14.
Thread Starter
Again at 140nm from Darwin, BN CTR
At 85 nm which was descent point F310. Call DN APP 125.2
Call approach as we sail across the top of RAGER.
what ever that means?? Is it the same as RAGER transition// I would think not.
RAGER is now behind us, program the GPS which then means go back to basic heading mode while we finish entering the STAR, otherwise we do a 180 back to RAGER.
Then the usual discussion re visual approach.
Apparantly in Darwin a visual approach is a level assignment and therefore requires a read back.
Can any one tell me what level a visual approach clears you to 1' or maybe 50'???
All I can suggest is continually submit ASIR's. Sooner or later some one will get sick of paper work and address the non standard situations in Darwin
expect FEEGSàrrival RAGER transition
Call approach as we sail across the top of RAGER.
Make FEEGS EAST ONE arrival via RAGER
RAGER is now behind us, program the GPS which then means go back to basic heading mode while we finish entering the STAR, otherwise we do a 180 back to RAGER.
Then the usual discussion re visual approach.
Apparantly in Darwin a visual approach is a level assignment and therefore requires a read back.
Can any one tell me what level a visual approach clears you to 1' or maybe 50'???
All I can suggest is continually submit ASIR's. Sooner or later some one will get sick of paper work and address the non standard situations in Darwin
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Aw c'mon. I had my own Darwin story a while ago. But then figured, well if flying was easy they would have a machine doing it.
I love the 1 and a half minutes of arrival instructions and the NFPs ability to read back the pertinent bits.
I love the 1 and a half minutes of arrival instructions and the NFPs ability to read back the pertinent bits.
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Hi guys,
I know Darwin isn't without their problems, but I believe one of the main reasons that the STARS weren't being issued by Brisbane Centre is that they need a day in the simulator to be taught how to issue them! Also, there has been a delay in getting sim time, so the problem is still there, so I'm told.
Has there been any improvement?
Cheers,
NFR.
I know Darwin isn't without their problems, but I believe one of the main reasons that the STARS weren't being issued by Brisbane Centre is that they need a day in the simulator to be taught how to issue them! Also, there has been a delay in getting sim time, so the problem is still there, so I'm told.
Has there been any improvement?
Cheers,
NFR.
Bottums Up
Not yet NFR but conversations late last mpnth with AsA & DRW ATC revealed the reason you've given. Pitty no one told us at the beginning. Nothing like operating in an information vacuum.
AsA advise that all should be normal by end of Sept.
AsA advise that all should be normal by end of Sept.
Thread Starter
I haven't been given a STAR for quite a while. Not sure whether that is a coincidence or they have given up for a while, in any case it works better with out the mess they were creating. The last couple of times I was issued with one I simply advised it was unacceptable due to the late notice.
What has changed has the way VSA's are issued. The latest goes some thing like this.
"when established on the vasis make visual approach blah blah blah"
Whats that one about, again simply not needed so why say it and then of course they want us to read that back as well???
What has changed has the way VSA's are issued. The latest goes some thing like this.
"when established on the vasis make visual approach blah blah blah"
Whats that one about, again simply not needed so why say it and then of course they want us to read that back as well???
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Capt, yeah, I can relate to that. I'm glad that an answer was given at least!
RENURPP: That VSA phrase should only be used at night if the aircraft is being radar vectored (ie, not on its own nav). If it is daytime, it in not needed. When is it happening?
Cheers,
NFR.
RENURPP: That VSA phrase should only be used at night if the aircraft is being radar vectored (ie, not on its own nav). If it is daytime, it in not needed. When is it happening?
Cheers,
NFR.
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Expectations are given as a work around due to the unavailabilty of STARs training 'cause there is no room in the Sim.
We're told that as the arrivals doesnt deviate from dct DN before 40nm, the current practises are O.K. (but why should we have to advise the transition point? Does it make a difference in this case?)
This real problem seems to stem from the a lack of resources at Airservices , closely followed by the RAAF's lack of the same.
BTW, stand-by for an announcement of a fantastic (unforecasted) profit by our Eagle Award winner.
We're told that as the arrivals doesnt deviate from dct DN before 40nm, the current practises are O.K. (but why should we have to advise the transition point? Does it make a difference in this case?)
This real problem seems to stem from the a lack of resources at Airservices , closely followed by the RAAF's lack of the same.
BTW, stand-by for an announcement of a fantastic (unforecasted) profit by our Eagle Award winner.
Bottums Up
Yarbles
The problem lies that when one calls the STAR from the PFM box it starts with the transition point, which by the time the STAR is issued is behind the aircraft. I'm aware of at least one occasion where this late issue of the STAR has caught out the pilot and when the enter key was pressed, the aircraft commenced a 180 turn to track to the transition point.
Trying to program the box at 50NM with a turn at 40NM requires deft finger work at a time when the work load's already fairly high, and doesn't leave much time for both pilots to effectively confirm all the details displayed are correct.
Company SOP usually preclude programming a STAR until it is issued. This saves one from getting ahead of the aircraft and subsequently departing from the cleared route because the STAR wasn't actually issued.
ON a related subject IMHO it is only a matter of time before there's a nasty or embarrasing incident at Darwin as many of the STAR names are so similar to one another, and the PFM boxes have limitations on the number of characters that can be displayed. Some one (I hope not me
) is going to activate the wrong STAR and spear off in the wrong direction. 
The problem lies that when one calls the STAR from the PFM box it starts with the transition point, which by the time the STAR is issued is behind the aircraft. I'm aware of at least one occasion where this late issue of the STAR has caught out the pilot and when the enter key was pressed, the aircraft commenced a 180 turn to track to the transition point.
Trying to program the box at 50NM with a turn at 40NM requires deft finger work at a time when the work load's already fairly high, and doesn't leave much time for both pilots to effectively confirm all the details displayed are correct.
Company SOP usually preclude programming a STAR until it is issued. This saves one from getting ahead of the aircraft and subsequently departing from the cleared route because the STAR wasn't actually issued.
ON a related subject IMHO it is only a matter of time before there's a nasty or embarrasing incident at Darwin as many of the STAR names are so similar to one another, and the PFM boxes have limitations on the number of characters that can be displayed. Some one (I hope not me
) is going to activate the wrong STAR and spear off in the wrong direction.
Thread Starter
NFR, Hi hows things going,
Last time I was given this instruction, a couple of days ago, I was cleared via HWS, under own NAV. I would suggest that would be the normal case. We are rarely radar vectored at that distance, we are normally tracking via HWS or occasionally direct to the VOR. All our Darwin arrivals are at night.
I was unaware that this was a requirement, i.e. when being radar vectored, are you able to cut and paste the particular para in here. Would be interested to read it. I assume it is in MATS as it is not mentiond in AIP.
down south soon so may drop you a line.
Last time I was given this instruction, a couple of days ago, I was cleared via HWS, under own NAV. I would suggest that would be the normal case. We are rarely radar vectored at that distance, we are normally tracking via HWS or occasionally direct to the VOR. All our Darwin arrivals are at night.
I was unaware that this was a requirement, i.e. when being radar vectored, are you able to cut and paste the particular para in here. Would be interested to read it. I assume it is in MATS as it is not mentiond in AIP.
down south soon so may drop you a line.
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The only direct AIP reference I could find is:
AIP GEN 3.4 para 5.12 part 2k. Visual approaches by night
"When established (position) cleared visual approach" Position in this case being 'on the vasis'.
MATS states:
The phraseology used when assigning a visual approach at night shall be:
a.“WHEN ESTABLISHED IN THE CIRCLING AREA CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH” if the flight has been radar vectored;or
b.“WHEN ESTABLISHED ON THE VASIS / GLIDEPATH CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH” if joining from outside the circling area
In the case of direct HLS, would you be joining final from outside the circling area hence the requirement for the extra RT?
Sounds like they are simply complying with MATS and AIP but interesting to note that the AIP phraselogy is unique to Australia.
AIP GEN 3.4 para 5.12 part 2k. Visual approaches by night
"When established (position) cleared visual approach" Position in this case being 'on the vasis'.
MATS states:
The phraseology used when assigning a visual approach at night shall be:
a.“WHEN ESTABLISHED IN THE CIRCLING AREA CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH” if the flight has been radar vectored;or
b.“WHEN ESTABLISHED ON THE VASIS / GLIDEPATH CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH” if joining from outside the circling area
In the case of direct HLS, would you be joining final from outside the circling area hence the requirement for the extra RT?
Sounds like they are simply complying with MATS and AIP but interesting to note that the AIP phraselogy is unique to Australia.
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Hi there,
Here's the stuff from MATS, which is similar to AIP, but MATS has our phraseology in it:
Manual of Air Traffic Services
Part 6 Information Transfer Section 2
Radar Vectoring for VISUAL approach at night
6.2.6.6If being radar vectored at night, an IFR aircraft other than a HEAVY jet aircraft as described at 6.2.6.4, may be assigned a visual approach at any distance from an aerodrome if:
a.the flight is assigned the minimum radar LSALT; and
b.given heading instructions to intercept final or to position the aircraft within the circling area of the aerodrome.
6.2.6.7The phraseology used when assigning a visual approach at night shall be:
a.“WHEN ESTABLISHED IN THE CIRCLING AREA CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH” if the flight has been radar vectored;or
b.“WHEN ESTABLISHED ON THE VASIS / GLIDEPATH CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH” if joining final from outside the circling area.
As you can see, it's for when people are being radar vectored. If under one's own nav, then you can be assigned a VSA from any distance:
6.2.6.3When a flight other than that described in 6.2.6.4 is within 30 NM of an aerodrome, a visual approach may be authorised by day or night to:
a.a VFR flight; or
b.an IFR flight when:
1.the pilot has established and can continue flight to the aerodrome with continuous visual reference to the ground or water; and
2.the visibility along the flight path is not less than 5,000 M (or by day, the aerodrome is in sight).
Hope that is clear as mud!
See ya,
NFR.
Here's the stuff from MATS, which is similar to AIP, but MATS has our phraseology in it:
Manual of Air Traffic Services
Part 6 Information Transfer Section 2
Radar Vectoring for VISUAL approach at night
6.2.6.6If being radar vectored at night, an IFR aircraft other than a HEAVY jet aircraft as described at 6.2.6.4, may be assigned a visual approach at any distance from an aerodrome if:
a.the flight is assigned the minimum radar LSALT; and
b.given heading instructions to intercept final or to position the aircraft within the circling area of the aerodrome.
6.2.6.7The phraseology used when assigning a visual approach at night shall be:
a.“WHEN ESTABLISHED IN THE CIRCLING AREA CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH” if the flight has been radar vectored;or
b.“WHEN ESTABLISHED ON THE VASIS / GLIDEPATH CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH” if joining final from outside the circling area.
As you can see, it's for when people are being radar vectored. If under one's own nav, then you can be assigned a VSA from any distance:
6.2.6.3When a flight other than that described in 6.2.6.4 is within 30 NM of an aerodrome, a visual approach may be authorised by day or night to:
a.a VFR flight; or
b.an IFR flight when:
1.the pilot has established and can continue flight to the aerodrome with continuous visual reference to the ground or water; and
2.the visibility along the flight path is not less than 5,000 M (or by day, the aerodrome is in sight).
Hope that is clear as mud!
See ya,
NFR.
Thread Starter
Thanks guys.
I will have a read of AIP when I get home. Also have to search and see if MATS is on the NET.
Apoligise to DN ATC for this one, interesting, I don't recall hearing this instruction any where else.
I will have a read of AIP when I get home. Also have to search and see if MATS is on the NET.
Apoligise to DN ATC for this one, interesting, I don't recall hearing this instruction any where else.
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From the ATCC (Training) roster "TOPS ATC Group" is scheduled for SIM at the end of October and beginning of November for the issuing of STARs into Darwin. So the fix is Mid November, probably.
Not sure what value SIM is for phraseology...? It should reduce transmissions. But I guess getting it right (being cautious) is better than not.
Not sure what value SIM is for phraseology...? It should reduce transmissions. But I guess getting it right (being cautious) is better than not.