Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

Will ADS-B do away with the need for radar?

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Will ADS-B do away with the need for radar?

Old 12th Oct 2004, 04:03
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Stralia
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Will ADS-B do away with the need for radar?

Except in the terminal area, will the introduction of ADS-B do away with the added expense of introducing more radar coverage under the Minister's Directive?

How far are the guru's from AsA away from making ADS-B a reality?

BM
Baldricks Mum is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 04:36
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Calcutta
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BM,

fishing?

ADS-B will be more than a a replacement for MSSR radars; it will more than likely prove to be more accurate than MSSR radar, has so far also gives better range; it updates more often and it is auto slant range corrected as it's using GPS data (digital data stream" sent to it, i.e. not a "reflection". Problems occur when airborne equipment fails or in times of GPS tollerance failure; but not very different from tansponder failure in the MSSR climate.

The issue will be fleet (GA) compliance; will the fleet have to buy a squiter or will it be supplied? If supplied where does the money come from, given that there is currently a team examining the ministerial direction compliance and accurately costing the 10 new radar heads...

ADS-B roll out may be too late to save the money, the"bucket" may be so empty that industry will have to 'hand in own pocket' to by a squiter; which means it won't be coming in anytime soon. Because I would imagine that would be resisted. Also the initial plan is for high-level ADS-B coverage FL300+; which of course will provide many areas of low level coverage; better than exists today, it probably won't enable a hand-out to all as the target audience is FL300+. If the FL300+ 'trial' works really well then the other sites (and squiters) will be progressively rolled out, I would guess. At about $200K per ground unit; you get the 30 sites for the cost of one MSSR radar, with almost no maintainence costs; no moving parts...
VVS Laxman is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 04:36
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: brisbane, australia
Posts: 31
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
From the Airservices website:
It’s objectives are to provide additional safety, efficiency and flexibility to airspace users through the wide-scale deployment of ADS-B technology.

If a significant percentage of aircraft operating in Australia were capable of transmitting ADS-B data (ADS-B Out), it is expected that:

a) Airservices Australia, and therefore its customers, could avoid the expense of maintaining existing enroute ATC secondary surveillance radars.

b) Regional airlines and others could decrease costs and increase safety by being able to electronically support “enhanced see and avoid” operational procedures. These aircraft would require the capability to receive ADS-B signals (ADS-B In) for display of traffic on cockpit displays.
I understand that it will be cheaper to install the necessary ADSB equipment in all VH registered aircraft than to maintain the current SSR radar sites.

More information on the project can be found at http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/.../adsb/adsb.htm
malroy is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 04:41
  #4 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Stralia
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
VVS,

I wasn't fishing at all. I just thought that ADS-B is the future and why pay for a radar at the cost of many millions when, as you put it, 30 sites could be established for the same price.

I saw a demo of ADS-B recently and thought that it would be great for everyone involved, not just the bean counters.

BM
Baldricks Mum is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 05:01
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I guess your real point is why pay for all this radar the Minister has directed when a cheaper, better, quicker alternative with better coverage is just coming in to it's own?

And a good question it is.

The answer of course has nothing to do with common sense, economics or safety.

It has all to do with the bloody mindness of John Anderson, carefully steered by you know who - good mate of the Robert 'Rodent' Menzies.

Anyhow, we have got three more years to now really appreciate the man and let him mature into his portfolio.

At least your interest rates won't be going up - apparently.
Uncommon Sense is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 09:31
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BM,

ADS-B is more accurate than radar (primary or secondary) and is far cheaper to install and maintain.

The great leap forward is that a cockpit display can also be fitted that gives a GPS like traffic picture on a moving map display to the pilot as well. We had a great demonstration of this in Brisbane earlier this year. This makes ADS-B great for pilot situational awareness.

Australia is leading the world in the implementation of this technology for Air Traffic Management. It will go a long way towards making the concept of free-flight a reality in the future. We are already conducting trials on behalf of ICAO to establish separation standards for this technology. Another area of aviation where Australia is not waiting for someone else to lead the way (yes I'm having a dig at USA with their outdated ATC equipment and reliance on radar).

I'm surprised Dick hasn't leapt on to the ADS-B bandwagon as it will enable inovative ways to better manage Australian airspace. It should bring big savings to every section of the industry, not just the big companies.

DP
DirtyPierre is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 10:47
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: effenq
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In a word.

YES

Cookie
YCKT is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 11:38
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Stralia
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks Dirty Pierre,

So if the ADS-B system is better than radar and bucket loads cheaper, then why haven't Airservices jumped up and down and said that we'll install ADS-B instead of the radar heads and everyone will be happy. That way we can get E above D surely.

Oh wait a minute, Airservices will probably want someone else to pay for the ADS-B installation??? End user or Defence maybe???

National security possibly. I don't care if Defence pays for it as long as the struggling GA operator doesn't have to. I can't think of a single GA operator in Aus that made the same multi-million dollar profit that AsA made last year.

I'm NOT having a go at ATC by the way. Bean counters get on my nerves, that's all.

BM
Baldricks Mum is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 11:42
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: inner suburbia
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ADS-B and 'free flight' will only work if everybody has (and uses) ADS-B.

The gliders and ultralights with weight and space limitations will still be invisible.
(ie. status quo)

I'm not holding my breath waiting to get a free or subsidised ADS-B unit.,, after all we still have a user pays for everything government.
Biggles_in_Oz is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 12:26
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Camden, NSW, Australia
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
DirtyPierre, you say Australia is leading the world..........
There is just one little snag.
Australia can't be leading the world when we are supposed to be FOLLOWING the Yanks and their 100 year old airway management expertise.
I Fly is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 12:49
  #11 (permalink)  

Mostly Harmless
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oz (cold & wet bit)
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I really don't think ADS/B will replace radar in terminal areas. It not only relies on pilots having the squitter, it relies on the squitter being plugged into something that knows where it is. A day where the gps don't work and everybody is guessing.

Will be an excellent concept at altitude where real aircraft (that can be trusted) fly. Will be better than nothing in enroute airspace where not much flies, it might even make NAS work.

The answer for terminal areas is radar, and where you can't afford or justify a radar a multilaterator, not ADS/B. As our f@ckwit of a minister hasn't spoken to anybody besides DHS he probably doesn't even know its an option. And in the meantime, seeing he is no longer terrified about facing an election, expect a follow up to his loony directive...
karrank is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2004, 12:49
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think Airservices are jumping up and down and saying ADS-B is the way to go - in the best possible way they can when you consider they are fighting a legal case (using your money), against being sued by a close mate of the rodent, who also happens to be a twice failed CASA chairman, who is also directing (via the Minister) the same Airservices to install uneconomic radars because that same Airservices called his bluff and told him he was an unsafe fool.

Confused? Welcome to the result of Airspace mis-management over the past 8 1/2 years - with three more now to perfect the recipe.

Of course the government in some guise or another will have to fund it - perhaps you should ask, why didn't the minister 'direct' such a thing to occur instead of appeasing 'some dick' prior to October 9?

It's a good thing my interest rates won't be going up - that gave me a real scare!

Last edited by Uncommon Sense; 24th Aug 2005 at 10:06.
Uncommon Sense is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2004, 00:17
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The answer for terminal areas is radar, and where you can't afford or justify a radar a multilaterator, not ADS/B.
That is correct, terminal areas, especially Sydney, Melbourne, and Brisbane etc, should have primary as well as secondary radar. The point is that ADS-B is ideal for the large enroute sectors that Oz has, and also where there are areas of poor radar coverage like around Bundaberg.



ADS-B and 'free flight' will only work if everybody has (and uses) ADS-B.
Agreed. I think the plan was to give all the GA aircraft one. Not sure what the current policy is, been lots of f**king around of AsA by Dick. The cost of putting a squitter in every GA aircraft is a lot less than what NAS has costed so far.

I think AirServices are jumping up and down and saying ADS-B is the way to go
This is the case, and ICAO have requested the results of our trails to establish separation standards for this technology. We are leading the way, just like with CPDLC, ADS, RNAV standards, RVSM.
DirtyPierre is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2004, 04:33
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: act
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It should be noted that ADSB has been trialled in Alaska for some years now as part of the Capstone project (see www.alaska.faa.gov/capstone/). They have been incorporating it into the ATC system since the late 90's, and actually used it on December 31 2000 to provide the first ever radar vectoring in the Bethel region. Not sure of the latest details though.

The GA community was provided with free cockpit MFDs so it can be used to aid in "see and avoid", but obviously only with respect to other ADSB equipped aircraft.

I'm not sure where AA are at in their trial, but from what I have read it doesn't appear they are as far advanced. Please fell free to provide more information.
Vref+5 is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2004, 07:38
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,152
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
D-P
I'm surprised Dick hasn't leapt on to the ADS-B bandwagon as it will enable inovative ways
The World's Greatest Pilot And Airspace Expert has:

Dick Smith Flyer: 31/8/04 Has compulsory ADS-B for Australia been properly thought out?
I have a feeling that compulsory ADS-B for small aircraft will put another nail in the coffin of general aviation in Australia.
CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2004, 00:19
  #16 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Stralia
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It will only put another nail in the coffin of GA if GA has to pay for it. I reckon if AsA are going to save tonnes of money, then they should pay for it.

But then again a lot of AsA practicies get on my goat.
Baldricks Mum is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2004, 01:02
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Have heard through reputable sources that CASA is looking at further miniturisation of the ADS-B units to microchip size. All pilots who obtain new licences will be required to cough up $3000. A small fraction will be allocated to licence issue with the remainder going towards a microchip implant operation to insert the chip behind the pilot's left ear hole. All pilots will then have an ADS-B unit.

Additional benefits include the option of allowing AOPA a small transmission to generate a slight hum in the ear when subscriptions need to be renewed and a noise cancelling option that deletes any mindless spiel emanating from Dick Smith from reaching the pilot's brain.
Lodown is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2004, 02:00
  #18 (permalink)  

Don Quixote Impersonator
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ADSB.

Like the DME, another great Aussie aviation development brought about by necessity as a result of the exigencies and difficulties of our unique non US, mostly remote, aviation environment.
Virtual radar across Australia, the SAR implications (more savings) are obvious.

Total coverage of Oz down to the ground with free retrofit to ALL aerial conveyances including parachutes could be provided with around $50,000,000 change out of the current and cynically mischievous"directed" provision of terminal radar.

But if we followed that fairly obvious path, Smith et al would not have the opportunity to play mind games with Government, the industry and regulators in the pursuit of their personal airspace design and aviation agendas.

AOPA used to support the concept but seem strangely silent about it in the light of the $150,000,000 terminal radar directive which can only cost their members and the Australian taxpayers dearly.
Did I miss their screams of protest about it or was I out to lunch at the time, I dunno, maybe Smith is a member.

And I can hear the serial conpiracists winding up now with the "ban free compulsory ADSB transponders to remain free to fly (responsibility optional) wherever we want, without an on board spy in the sky" campaign.

For my money hardwired to the battery switch and a $1,000,000 fine or 20 years, for not knowingly having it so.
gaunty is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2004, 05:52
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Can'tberra
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
All

AOPA supports ADSB, but obviously not if GA is forced (or an attempt is made to force) to fit at thier expence.

A fit of all GA a/c <5700kg would still leave AsA $50 Mil change out of the ministers directive if older 'backscatter + SSR' radar heads were used. Not to mention maintenance.

Will it do away with terminal, not for a very long time, but some research in Europe is interesting.

I do hope it is the final nail in the coffin of towers in places like Coffs and tamworth although I'd still give my right arm to be one of those 3 lucky buggars in Coffs.

AK
Andrew Kerans is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2004, 06:54
  #20 (permalink)  

Mostly Harmless
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Oz (cold & wet bit)
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Erm, your enthusiasm is nice Gaunty, but ADS/B isn't that good. While unit to unit will extend anywhere there is a CDTI on the dashboard ATC will only see aircraft within range of the ground stations, and there are "only" 28 of them.
karrank is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.