Proof that we do it for love!
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Gaunty
No I didn't! Let me see, you think that pilot's are paid what they are worth?
In General Aviation, I don't think that's true at all!
There's nothing too subtle about it!
Yeah, you could go fly for an "Air America Wannabe" in Africa and get shot at and make more, but that's a bunch of crap too.
If I had any say in it, I would make it illegal for a commercial operator to charge for time and make a candidate pay for his or her own training. We are moving further and further away from hiring, "the most qualified candidate".
Next they'll be asking these young guys and girls to pay for their own recurrent training, office space and why not fuel for the bloody plane while we're at it!
In General Aviation, I don't think that's true at all!
There's nothing too subtle about it!
Yeah, you could go fly for an "Air America Wannabe" in Africa and get shot at and make more, but that's a bunch of crap too.
If I had any say in it, I would make it illegal for a commercial operator to charge for time and make a candidate pay for his or her own training. We are moving further and further away from hiring, "the most qualified candidate".
Next they'll be asking these young guys and girls to pay for their own recurrent training, office space and why not fuel for the bloody plane while we're at it!
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Chris
We are actually in violent agreement.
There are/were too many GA operations started by pilots who couldn't get into airlines or into an existing GA operation wanting to build hours, stay in the business blah, blah, blah fluffing up or servicing markets that didn't really exist or predating those that did.
Rarely were they started with a business plan or any idea where they were going beyond the first months lease payments and fuel and a "contract" client they had stolen from their previous employer offering cheaper rates.
Of course where do you think the "contract" went when someone else offered them even cheaper rates.
We even had a Govt contract that had to be relet because even the financiers couldn't see how they were going to get paid.
So you spend several years training them up from somewhere near useless but have a CPL to a GA professional to have them poached, leave to airlines or start their own show with one of your clients. Forgive me if employers get a bit jaundiced and go for the lowest common denominator on pay.
But thats a story for another day.
I've had a desk full of applicants who wanted to pay for their job, who went straight into the circular filing cabinet.
I should not have drawn the African "red herring" across the trail, and they certainly were not "Air America Wannabe" they were a major Catholic aid org having the devil
of a trouble getting their aid into the Congo and people out, it was a bloody bloody mess and real desperado stuff for the pilots, I take my hat off to them. I was really trying to illustrate that setting the bar, sometimes means you have to pay heaps to get people to do things nobody else wants to.
I suspect if you were to ask some of your corporate clients, you might find that they would agree that they became succesful or made lots of money, because they were willing to do things that others wouldn't and I don't mean illegal. Your Chicago domestic disposal engineers come to mind.
or there is not really a market that can sustain your personal expectations................
There may not even be a market if the operator for whom we aspire to work for, was to price it according to the real costs. Think about it.
There may not even be a market if the operator for whom we aspire to work for, was to price it according to the real costs. Think about it.
There are/were too many GA operations started by pilots who couldn't get into airlines or into an existing GA operation wanting to build hours, stay in the business blah, blah, blah fluffing up or servicing markets that didn't really exist or predating those that did.
Rarely were they started with a business plan or any idea where they were going beyond the first months lease payments and fuel and a "contract" client they had stolen from their previous employer offering cheaper rates.
Of course where do you think the "contract" went when someone else offered them even cheaper rates.
We even had a Govt contract that had to be relet because even the financiers couldn't see how they were going to get paid.
So you spend several years training them up from somewhere near useless but have a CPL to a GA professional to have them poached, leave to airlines or start their own show with one of your clients. Forgive me if employers get a bit jaundiced and go for the lowest common denominator on pay.
But thats a story for another day.
I've had a desk full of applicants who wanted to pay for their job, who went straight into the circular filing cabinet.
I should not have drawn the African "red herring" across the trail, and they certainly were not "Air America Wannabe" they were a major Catholic aid org having the devil
of a trouble getting their aid into the Congo and people out, it was a bloody bloody mess and real desperado stuff for the pilots, I take my hat off to them. I was really trying to illustrate that setting the bar, sometimes means you have to pay heaps to get people to do things nobody else wants to.I suspect if you were to ask some of your corporate clients, you might find that they would agree that they became succesful or made lots of money, because they were willing to do things that others wouldn't and I don't mean illegal. Your Chicago domestic disposal engineers come to mind.
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Humbled yet again...
Alright! You join the list of those that have educated me to 4711, Todzalp, and Air No Services and while we're at it, let's throw in Keg as well.
I see your perspective completely, although, I hadn't really given it the full consideration until you had spelled it out.
Best regards!
Chris
I see your perspective completely, although, I hadn't really given it the full consideration until you had spelled it out.
Best regards!
Chris
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Chris Higgins
Not necessary,
I wait with interest the results of your Bondi meeting, I could say "you go where angels etc........" been there done that and it's futile where this man is concerned and I fear all you are going to achieve is giving more 02 to a fire that actually needs CO2.
It may well be that it will all be over by then in any event (formal NAS rollback and a high profile public execution or two for the entertainment of the prols) and it will simply provide another opportunity for a media stunt vis a vis the LHI event, that will not solve anything except fuel his and his fellow apologists XXL egos.
Having said that good luck and points for trying!
prospector
He did didn't he.
this is my team helping me get a point across
Not necessary,
I wait with interest the results of your Bondi meeting, I could say "you go where angels etc........" been there done that and it's futile where this man is concerned and I fear all you are going to achieve is giving more 02 to a fire that actually needs CO2.It may well be that it will all be over by then in any event (formal NAS rollback and a high profile public execution or two for the entertainment of the prols) and it will simply provide another opportunity for a media stunt vis a vis the LHI event, that will not solve anything except fuel his and his fellow apologists XXL egos.
Having said that good luck and points for trying!
prospector
He did didn't he.
this is my team helping me get a point across
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Gaunty;
_Quote______________________________________________
When a lad (1970 ish) I (or anyone else interested) was offered what was then a kings ransom per month into a Swiss bank account plus another princes ransom walking around money to fly (command yet) DC6-7/Constellations for a big time relief agency into one of the more unfriendly and inhospitable parts of Africa. Pretty atttactive for a 20 something when airlines were closed for the foreseeable future and it was for a very worthy cause and I probably should have done it for free for that reason alone. But it wasn't my fight and they weren't paying for my skills ??, there were thousands of pilots more qualified than I.
____________________________________________________
I hope you are not asking us to believe the great Hank Warton wanted you to fly his Constellation into Biafra during the Nigerian Civil War (in 1968 actually).
From what I understand only He, flew "the Old Gray (sic) Ghost".
From your CV's to various Bodies, you were licenced in 1962. Some rise to fame on your part I may say.
_Quote______________________________________________
When a lad (1970 ish) I (or anyone else interested) was offered what was then a kings ransom per month into a Swiss bank account plus another princes ransom walking around money to fly (command yet) DC6-7/Constellations for a big time relief agency into one of the more unfriendly and inhospitable parts of Africa. Pretty atttactive for a 20 something when airlines were closed for the foreseeable future and it was for a very worthy cause and I probably should have done it for free for that reason alone. But it wasn't my fight and they weren't paying for my skills ??, there were thousands of pilots more qualified than I.
____________________________________________________
I hope you are not asking us to believe the great Hank Warton wanted you to fly his Constellation into Biafra during the Nigerian Civil War (in 1968 actually).
From what I understand only He, flew "the Old Gray (sic) Ghost".
From your CV's to various Bodies, you were licenced in 1962. Some rise to fame on your part I may say.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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No and not even a little bit close and I can't recall having heard of him, neither do I remember the details of the contacts just the circumstances and my old mate can't help me now.
A 'google' suggests that "great" and Hank Warton may not belong in the same sentence, you appear to have had some connection?
I might have to call my old mate Clarrie who is a really great guy, (a) to see if he is still around and (b) to get the goss.
Purely serendipitous but unbeknown to us both at the time Clarrie and I shared a close friend (female Courtline FA on a trooping flight I think and another mates squeeze) whom he rescued from almost certain death when they, as you do being very very attractive blondes, broke curfew on an overnight to go to a nightclub, got arrested by the "local cops" and taken to the local slammer for some "in depth interrogation". He went down to the hotel bar looking to catch up, they were both West Aussies, was told where they had gone and being an old African hand knew the extreme danger they were in. It was pretty tense but he got them out.
BTW as far as my:
are concerned
they are not available for discussion here and apart from being none of your business, if they were available to you, there has been a gross breach of privacy either by the those who provided them or by yourself for revelation of ANY details here.
There are remedies available at law for this as you well know
I suspect your motivation in any event is less than pure.
A 'google' suggests that "great" and Hank Warton may not belong in the same sentence, you appear to have had some connection?
I might have to call my old mate Clarrie who is a really great guy, (a) to see if he is still around and (b) to get the goss.
Purely serendipitous but unbeknown to us both at the time Clarrie and I shared a close friend (female Courtline FA on a trooping flight I think and another mates squeeze) whom he rescued from almost certain death when they, as you do being very very attractive blondes
, broke curfew on an overnight to go to a nightclub, got arrested by the "local cops" and taken to the local slammer for some "in depth interrogation". He went down to the hotel bar looking to catch up, they were both West Aussies, was told where they had gone and being an old African hand knew the extreme danger they were in. It was pretty tense but he got them out.BTW as far as my:
CV's to various Bodies,
they are not available for discussion here and apart from being none of your business, if they were available to you, there has been a gross breach of privacy either by the those who provided them or by yourself for revelation of ANY details here.
There are remedies available at law for this as you well know
I suspect your motivation in any event is less than pure.
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Only Connie flying was Hank Warton's and depending on who's side you were on he was a Saint or Sinner. (There was no command time here, he did the flying). Biafrans thought he was OK. The DC 6 and 4 were variously operated by The Count and the last Swede disappeared in the 6, never to be seen again.
Recruitment was and as far as I know, still done from Jo'burg. Nobody was asked to fly, as in "headhunted", you had to apply. The going rate during the Congo mess was US$400/ month plus US$1,000 per mission, so you can CPI to your hearts content to see what that is today.
Generally Aid agencies were Government sponsored and yes, there was Air America but that was a different recruitment process altogether.
Mr Sultanas is the fruitcake supplement in the partnership, so you should address you legal threats to his Lawyers;
Contact, Sydney: 02 9969 2777 ask for Mr Lyon.
Recruitment was and as far as I know, still done from Jo'burg. Nobody was asked to fly, as in "headhunted", you had to apply. The going rate during the Congo mess was US$400/ month plus US$1,000 per mission, so you can CPI to your hearts content to see what that is today.
Generally Aid agencies were Government sponsored and yes, there was Air America but that was a different recruitment process altogether.
Mr Sultanas is the fruitcake supplement in the partnership, so you should address you legal threats to his Lawyers;
Contact, Sydney: 02 9969 2777 ask for Mr Lyon.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Well there you go, now we all know more about your friend Hank Warton, sounds like an interesting chap must go and follow him up with Clarrie.
And your point is?
Why am I not surprised that you confirmed my suspicion, the Bobbsey twins eh!
Chris
With luck. you will most likely have the pleasure of these two at your Bondi talkfest.
Actually more your Tweedledum and Tweedledee and if you're lucky they'll recite the eponymic poem "The Walrus and the Carpenter" for you, but more likely be prepared for a 2 hour discourse from the Walrus on how he singlehandedly saved the aviation world, complete with random outraged ejaculations in the manner of "ridiculous", "outrageous", "unbelievable", "absolutely criminal" in support from the Carpenter. No one has yet been able to work out what relationship the ejaculations from the Carpenter have to the discourse other than to suggest to the listener he somehow understands what is being said.
Might I suggest you reread "Alice In Wonderland" and "Through the Looking Glass" on the journey down as a means of getting your mind tuned up for your Australian experience. 
And your point is?
Why am I not surprised that you confirmed my suspicion, the Bobbsey twins eh!
Chris
With luck.
you will most likely have the pleasure of these two at your Bondi talkfest.Actually more your Tweedledum and Tweedledee and if you're lucky they'll recite the eponymic poem "The Walrus and the Carpenter" for you, but more likely be prepared for a 2 hour discourse from the Walrus on how he singlehandedly saved the aviation world, complete with random outraged ejaculations in the manner of "ridiculous", "outrageous", "unbelievable", "absolutely criminal" in support from the Carpenter. No one has yet been able to work out what relationship the ejaculations from the Carpenter have to the discourse other than to suggest to the listener he somehow understands what is being said.
Might I suggest you reread "Alice In Wonderland" and "Through the Looking Glass" on the journey down as a means of getting your mind tuned up for your Australian experience.
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What a strange man you are Mr Gaunty. If I give you the answer can you tell me the question. As the topic had gone completely "off topic" a joke like Taronga Park Zoo and Mr Lyon seemed appropriate.
But what a curiouser and curiouser answer you give. (Alice in wonderland I believe). Perhaps we should leave it here before we get all paranoid?
But what a curiouser and curiouser answer you give. (Alice in wonderland I believe). Perhaps we should leave it here before we get all paranoid?
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Sultanas and Gin
I may owe you an apology and yes I may still be a little paranoid, having just come off a board with a real person of that name of what may look like a national aviation body, but which in fact turned out to be something entirely different.
I didn't, but should have, checked out the telephone number, but as it was in Sydney I put 2 and 2 together and got 3.
You still do not explain your reference to details that I thought were confidential, as well as a suggestion that I was somehow trying to gild a lily, when all I was trying to do was illustrate the motivations at both ends of the "market" from an experience that left some impact on me from all those years ago.
Alice in Wonderland??
Were I have just been over the last 12 months or so, was, as they say in the quantum physics world not only "strange" but "even stranger" than you could possibly imagine. Maybe I should just up the dosage. until I get better.
My comments to Chris may not apply to you, but they nonetheless certainly describe some of the characters in the play.
I may owe you an apology and yes I may still be a little paranoid, having just come off a board with a real person of that name of what may look like a national aviation body, but which in fact turned out to be something entirely different.
I didn't, but should have, checked out the telephone number, but as it was in Sydney I put 2 and 2 together and got 3.
You still do not explain your reference to details that I thought were confidential, as well as a suggestion that I was somehow trying to gild a lily, when all I was trying to do was illustrate the motivations at both ends of the "market" from an experience that left some impact on me from all those years ago.
Alice in Wonderland??
Were I have just been over the last 12 months or so, was, as they say in the quantum physics world not only "strange" but "even stranger" than you could possibly imagine. Maybe I should just up the dosage.
until I get better. My comments to Chris may not apply to you, but they nonetheless certainly describe some of the characters in the play.
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ZK NSJ your comments on AN stink. Put it on another thread...
If you do, careful, there are a LOT of angry ex AN people who will take you to task on the issue.
Something about Air NZ management fleecing AN to line their incompentent pockets, I think.
If you do, careful, there are a LOT of angry ex AN people who will take you to task on the issue.
Something about Air NZ management fleecing AN to line their incompentent pockets, I think.
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in my original post there was no mention what so ever of ansett, this thread has nothing to do with ansett, twas chris higgins who brought it up , thats why i added a extra bit at the bottom
