Don't do it!!!
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Don't do it!!!
Been reading a lot lately about companies requiring pilot's to pay for their own training including if you are already experienced on type. This week in flight international, jobs posted ask for this as well as Air Atlanta ACE or whatever although it says "B747-200 type rating will be provided" Yeah, Uh-huh, sure it will! This seems like round 2 for 1990 era when most copmanies were asking for this. If you pay for your job you must be mad!
The terms at the recent Emirates offer for DE Captains says it all. I believe most of the recruits now will be low timers and that this program will backfire again on these airlines. Pacific Blue, Virgin Blue so they can fly to NZ and other destinations, nice way to take advantage of the Ansett blokes. Hope fully no one will apply for these positions. Rishworth and Brookfiled-shame on you!
The terms at the recent Emirates offer for DE Captains says it all. I believe most of the recruits now will be low timers and that this program will backfire again on these airlines. Pacific Blue, Virgin Blue so they can fly to NZ and other destinations, nice way to take advantage of the Ansett blokes. Hope fully no one will apply for these positions. Rishworth and Brookfiled-shame on you!
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Why would a GA driver out bush being over-worked and under paid listen to some Captain from California? which is what you are Capt Saturn. I don't know your background, but from where I'm coming from parting with some $$$$ and moving on in aviation is a much better option than staying in a place I don't really like living in. I'd probably pay off the $30,000 odd (thats just a guess.....I wouldn't know how much it costs) for an endorsement in a couple of years or so with my new employment anyway. You might think GA guys that are going for this are buying their way into an airline, or that the airline is taking advantage of them. Maybe all they are doing is buying their way out of the pathetic dismal industry we have down here called GA, and I wouldn't blame anyone for doing that.
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Yeah thats right rainguage, all you are doing is buying yourself out of a pathetic dismal industry and into another one.
I'm sure your passionate love making to the big shiny jet will be satisfaction enough.
Sucker.
I'm sure your passionate love making to the big shiny jet will be satisfaction enough.
Sucker.
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I totally agree with Saturn
Hey raingauge ever wondered why some people end up overseas, like in California,,, it might just be because they have morals and aren't willing to lower the standard for other pilots,
Do you know why the GA industry is so bad? Could have something to do with people buying there way into jobs, purchasing icus, which keeps people like you in places you don’t like for longer, and everyone that works for one of those shonky companies that encourages this, whinges about there conditions.
So my question is, are you trying to send the airline industry into the same situation as GA, because if everyone keeps trying to buy there next job, it will only disadvantage the industry, and the guys that cant afford to buy the next promotion.
It also keeps shonky companies in business longer because they have fewer expenses than the reputable companies that pay for all your training, and don’t skimp on quality to try and keep the loan down.
What is next will they charge for recurrancy, in the sims, and hey they could tell you, you have to foot the bill for your own cyclic (instrument renewals) wont that be fun, give an inch and they take the whole bloody planet
I for one WILL NOT work for a company that wants me to buy an endorsement, I will sign a bond, that is fair, but have not and will not apply to the likes of vb and others that want me to pay for training they should provide
P.S raingauge, i have been in GA now for a few years, how long have you been there? it does get better, i love my current GA job, so stop bitching and trying to jump through the cue, work hard and reap the rewards.
all the best
duke
Hey raingauge ever wondered why some people end up overseas, like in California,,, it might just be because they have morals and aren't willing to lower the standard for other pilots,
Do you know why the GA industry is so bad? Could have something to do with people buying there way into jobs, purchasing icus, which keeps people like you in places you don’t like for longer, and everyone that works for one of those shonky companies that encourages this, whinges about there conditions.
So my question is, are you trying to send the airline industry into the same situation as GA, because if everyone keeps trying to buy there next job, it will only disadvantage the industry, and the guys that cant afford to buy the next promotion.
It also keeps shonky companies in business longer because they have fewer expenses than the reputable companies that pay for all your training, and don’t skimp on quality to try and keep the loan down.
What is next will they charge for recurrancy, in the sims, and hey they could tell you, you have to foot the bill for your own cyclic (instrument renewals) wont that be fun, give an inch and they take the whole bloody planet
I for one WILL NOT work for a company that wants me to buy an endorsement, I will sign a bond, that is fair, but have not and will not apply to the likes of vb and others that want me to pay for training they should provide
P.S raingauge, i have been in GA now for a few years, how long have you been there? it does get better, i love my current GA job, so stop bitching and trying to jump through the cue, work hard and reap the rewards.
all the best
duke
Evertonian
In principle, I agee that you should not have to pay for your own training, regardless of your industry or role. However, wouldn't this be tax deductable?
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Well seeing how every body shot Rain guage to pieces I thought i'd put my two cents worth in.
In my industry which is business marketing in order to get further up the ladder you have to continue your studies. Be it getting another degree or an MBA which costs a ****e load more then a 737 endorsement. So just like my industry people are the same as in the aviation "Should i get it now and be 50K poorer or wait until some fairy flys down and hands it to me on a silver plater".
PHF/Saturn/DOD : if you think that he is going from dismal to worse, at least he'll find out sooner then you guys. The GA scene wasnt for me i.e the living in remote areas and low pay, so i got out of it ...and hopefully when i get my hours up and complete further studies and if required get an endorsement to get the chance to make mad passionate love to a jet well so be it. I know pilots who fly for the white rat and the red rocket , some of them bitch like there is no tomorrow just like you guys and the others run to work every day because they love what they are doing and know how fortunate they are.
RAINGUAGE: Mate if you want to get out of the GA scene sooner rather then later well go out and get that endorsement, I see that Virgin are looking to recruit, best of luck with it.
In my industry which is business marketing in order to get further up the ladder you have to continue your studies. Be it getting another degree or an MBA which costs a ****e load more then a 737 endorsement. So just like my industry people are the same as in the aviation "Should i get it now and be 50K poorer or wait until some fairy flys down and hands it to me on a silver plater".
PHF/Saturn/DOD : if you think that he is going from dismal to worse, at least he'll find out sooner then you guys. The GA scene wasnt for me i.e the living in remote areas and low pay, so i got out of it ...and hopefully when i get my hours up and complete further studies and if required get an endorsement to get the chance to make mad passionate love to a jet well so be it. I know pilots who fly for the white rat and the red rocket , some of them bitch like there is no tomorrow just like you guys and the others run to work every day because they love what they are doing and know how fortunate they are.
RAINGUAGE: Mate if you want to get out of the GA scene sooner rather then later well go out and get that endorsement, I see that Virgin are looking to recruit, best of luck with it.
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Didn't Impulse used to charge for the 1900 endo?
Whats wrong with having to pay for an endorsement? Isn't it laid out in the application? Must be 737 endorsed (like Pacific Blue). So simply if you don't have it you cannot apply. Its not like a gun is being held to your head? Bit like the ATPL's really cost ya well over $5k should this be paid by your employer? Hang on no its a requirement to have before you can get the job.
We've have all done endorsements to help better our career no matter what type its on.
Now if you had to pay once you were employed then yes that would be b*tchen but ya don't!!!. Its an initial requirement to be empoyed, so whats the problem? Very clearly laid out that it is a requirement. So exactly how is this buying a job?
And before you shoot me down. We cover endorsements for guys/gals that we need them to have however if someone just wants an endorsement to help them progress then its a different story. Yes it is a much different scale when it comes to the $ but it is the same principal.
The biggest problem in this game is that everyone seems to think it is the only game. Get out and have a look at many other industries like I have said before. For example:- Journalism, Modelling (believe it or not), Medicine (wow ya think we work long hours) & the list goes on and on and on.
Just my humble opinion...
Whats wrong with having to pay for an endorsement? Isn't it laid out in the application? Must be 737 endorsed (like Pacific Blue). So simply if you don't have it you cannot apply. Its not like a gun is being held to your head? Bit like the ATPL's really cost ya well over $5k should this be paid by your employer? Hang on no its a requirement to have before you can get the job.
We've have all done endorsements to help better our career no matter what type its on.
Now if you had to pay once you were employed then yes that would be b*tchen but ya don't!!!. Its an initial requirement to be empoyed, so whats the problem? Very clearly laid out that it is a requirement. So exactly how is this buying a job?
And before you shoot me down. We cover endorsements for guys/gals that we need them to have however if someone just wants an endorsement to help them progress then its a different story. Yes it is a much different scale when it comes to the $ but it is the same principal.
The biggest problem in this game is that everyone seems to think it is the only game. Get out and have a look at many other industries like I have said before. For example:- Journalism, Modelling (believe it or not), Medicine (wow ya think we work long hours) & the list goes on and on and on.
Just my humble opinion...
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Thanks Aztrucker and HA for writing my thoughts perhaps better than I was able.
Story time!!!
I once had a CP who hated QF based on the fact that he didn't have Year 12 behind him. He had over 4500hours, a crap load on turbines and so on....but he never got an interview. To me the solution was simple, do year 12....even by correspondance if he wanted to and then he'd be a shoe in for an interview, no worries. To cut this long and possibly boring story short, he never did, and I think ended up quiting flying and probably still hates QF. At the end of the day he didn't have their minimun requirements so even though he thought he deserved an interview is it any suprise he never got one???....he didn't even have THEIR minimum requirements and my attitude then is the same as it is now. If you don't have the minimum requirements for an interview get of your ar$e and get them.
If airlines are going to start to require endorsements I can do two things, and that is to tell them to shove it and stay in piston land for the rest of my life, or I can make an investment into my future and reach some goals that I've set for myself.
Duke of Whatever.....I've never paid for ICUS and don't think much of pilots that do. I think there is an obviouse difference in people who do that compaired to people just trying to get the minimum requirements for an interview. (I'm not aware of any GA companies that require x amount of ICUS before they give you an interview). I've been in GA for a few years aswell, and trust me, I ain't jumping any cues.
I don't actually agree that they should be asking for you to get an endo before you start (ahh shock horror...) I'm just trying to make the point that if I've spent $50,000 odd in training and currency, lived in a place for a few years that isn't shall I say my "choice" of residence, been paid an average wage (and yes I DO get paid the award.....I just think it's average thats all), and all the rest of it, why should I stop short of going all the way by digging my heals in now and make myself unemployable by these new airlines?.
PHF....What you do with big shiny jets in your business
I Just plan on flying them.
Story time!!!
I once had a CP who hated QF based on the fact that he didn't have Year 12 behind him. He had over 4500hours, a crap load on turbines and so on....but he never got an interview. To me the solution was simple, do year 12....even by correspondance if he wanted to and then he'd be a shoe in for an interview, no worries. To cut this long and possibly boring story short, he never did, and I think ended up quiting flying and probably still hates QF. At the end of the day he didn't have their minimun requirements so even though he thought he deserved an interview is it any suprise he never got one???....he didn't even have THEIR minimum requirements and my attitude then is the same as it is now. If you don't have the minimum requirements for an interview get of your ar$e and get them.
If airlines are going to start to require endorsements I can do two things, and that is to tell them to shove it and stay in piston land for the rest of my life, or I can make an investment into my future and reach some goals that I've set for myself.
Duke of Whatever.....I've never paid for ICUS and don't think much of pilots that do. I think there is an obviouse difference in people who do that compaired to people just trying to get the minimum requirements for an interview. (I'm not aware of any GA companies that require x amount of ICUS before they give you an interview). I've been in GA for a few years aswell, and trust me, I ain't jumping any cues.
I don't actually agree that they should be asking for you to get an endo before you start (ahh shock horror...) I'm just trying to make the point that if I've spent $50,000 odd in training and currency, lived in a place for a few years that isn't shall I say my "choice" of residence, been paid an average wage (and yes I DO get paid the award.....I just think it's average thats all), and all the rest of it, why should I stop short of going all the way by digging my heals in now and make myself unemployable by these new airlines?.
PHF....What you do with big shiny jets in your business
I Just plan on flying them.
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Raingauge
If a GA company requires so many hours on a certain aircraft type or minimum multi hours before you get a look in then what do you think of the bloke who pays thousands of dollars doing ICUS on bank runs so he can go back and get a "better" job flying twins? Get him out of the bush or out of singles by being pro active and improving his qualifications.
According to your ideas this person is doing nothing wrong by going out and by whatever means neccessary getting a minimum reuirement before landing a job, yet you say;
"I've never paid for ICUS and don't think much of pilots that do."
Universities in this country are going down the same track. If you can't get into a course through abilities then just fork out thousands of dollars to get in.
Do you think that there is anything wrong with that?
If a GA company requires so many hours on a certain aircraft type or minimum multi hours before you get a look in then what do you think of the bloke who pays thousands of dollars doing ICUS on bank runs so he can go back and get a "better" job flying twins? Get him out of the bush or out of singles by being pro active and improving his qualifications.
According to your ideas this person is doing nothing wrong by going out and by whatever means neccessary getting a minimum reuirement before landing a job, yet you say;
"I've never paid for ICUS and don't think much of pilots that do."
Universities in this country are going down the same track. If you can't get into a course through abilities then just fork out thousands of dollars to get in.
Do you think that there is anything wrong with that?
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I think paying for ICUS is a w*nk. Unless there is a definate reason. I.E. Somone who gets a 1900 endo with some ICUS as he has a job in Saudi lined up.
Then again does it really matter? As an employer if I see someone with 100 hours PA31 ICUS then what do I think? I think ??? Why do you have 100 ICUS? Not tough enough to get a job so you buy one? So sh*t that you needed 100 hours before being let go? And the questions go on. So it actually all works out in the wash.
Then then again what a way to make an extra buck... Charge people to fly for me... mmm now theres an idea (NOT!!!).
Then again does it really matter? As an employer if I see someone with 100 hours PA31 ICUS then what do I think? I think ??? Why do you have 100 ICUS? Not tough enough to get a job so you buy one? So sh*t that you needed 100 hours before being let go? And the questions go on. So it actually all works out in the wash.
Then then again what a way to make an extra buck... Charge people to fly for me... mmm now theres an idea (NOT!!!).
Raingauge- I think you have answered your own question. 'If airlines are going to start to require endorsements'- real airlines don't require endorsements, only the pretend airlines do. Real airlines offer a remuneration package that staff will stay for hence turnover is negligible. The novelty of a shiny new jet will wear off after your fourth back of clock for the week, shortly thereafter you'll wonder why you cancelled the Flight International subscription. Cheers.
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I've never paid for ICUS and don't think much of pilots that do.
IF the person had done a few hours ICUS on the PA31 because the autopilot was U/S hence the company needed a second pilot, and wasn't getting charged for it, would you still say 'DON'T DO IT" ?
If a person pays for ICUS, say, once a month to keep current, and is effectively getting a free twin lesson at 1/4 the cost that it would normally cost, would you still say "DON'T DO IT" ?
If the person was offered FREE iCUS to bring him/her up to standard then ended up getting the job with the company that had offered him/her ICUS, would you STILL say "DON'T DO IT " ??
It must be nice to live in such a 'black and white world'!
Personally I don't think a lot of pilots who :
- Knowingly fly a U/S aircraft
- Accept less pay and conditions than the next person hence undermining the insustry
- Don't report faults and incidents ie; heavy landings
- Refuse to learn
- have scant regard for the rules and regs
- lack airmanship
- think that the world owes them a living, and refuse to get off their ar$es and look for work
- .......
I could go on, but I think you get my drift.
There is another way of looking at the VB vs QF pay for endorsement thing.
VB make you pay for the endorsement, but put you on full pay from day 1.
QF "give" you the endorsement but put you on PUIT pay, and then on a lower pay scale as a S/O for 2 years (I stand to be corrcted on the specifics there)
If you spent 4-5 months on PUIT pay, you would find that your "free" endorsement is actually costing you money.
I was thnking about it the other day, and the VB method probably costs them as much or more in the long run than if they paid for the endorsement and put everybody on PUIT pay to start.
Granted you need to stump up the readies for the endorsement, and you carry the risk if you fail, which is an issue in some cases, but it certainly provides a measure of motivation!
I am not sure which I prefer - pay for your endorsement training up front but have no bond, or pay for it through a reduced salary, but have a bond for a couple of years.
I guess if you hold the high moral ground and refuse to apply, you are probably better off as you would not be happy if you got the job...but there are plenty that are happy to sign on under the advertised conditions
VB make you pay for the endorsement, but put you on full pay from day 1.
QF "give" you the endorsement but put you on PUIT pay, and then on a lower pay scale as a S/O for 2 years (I stand to be corrcted on the specifics there)
If you spent 4-5 months on PUIT pay, you would find that your "free" endorsement is actually costing you money.
I was thnking about it the other day, and the VB method probably costs them as much or more in the long run than if they paid for the endorsement and put everybody on PUIT pay to start.
Granted you need to stump up the readies for the endorsement, and you carry the risk if you fail, which is an issue in some cases, but it certainly provides a measure of motivation!
I am not sure which I prefer - pay for your endorsement training up front but have no bond, or pay for it through a reduced salary, but have a bond for a couple of years.
I guess if you hold the high moral ground and refuse to apply, you are probably better off as you would not be happy if you got the job...but there are plenty that are happy to sign on under the advertised conditions
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Gee....talk about being under the pump.
When I say paying for ICUS I mean like what HA posted about....not all the other examples that apache went on about like keeping current, US auto pilots, and free ICUS. I see a difference in someone going out to buy 100 hours of ICUS compaired to all the examples apache bought up, and if others don't see thoughs differences then I suppose we look at this issue a bit different.
Apache, I'm assuming all of your post was directed at me, which sort of makes me wonder what your going on about with that list of things at the end. I hope your not implying that list applies to me, cause I hate thoughs things aswell.
Dehabillanddriver, you bought up a great point. I suppose there is no such thing as a free lunch....you always pay for it in the end.
When I say paying for ICUS I mean like what HA posted about....not all the other examples that apache went on about like keeping current, US auto pilots, and free ICUS. I see a difference in someone going out to buy 100 hours of ICUS compaired to all the examples apache bought up, and if others don't see thoughs differences then I suppose we look at this issue a bit different.
Apache, I'm assuming all of your post was directed at me, which sort of makes me wonder what your going on about with that list of things at the end. I hope your not implying that list applies to me, cause I hate thoughs things aswell.
Dehabillanddriver, you bought up a great point. I suppose there is no such thing as a free lunch....you always pay for it in the end.
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Im going to agree with raingauge on this one. I dont see the problem with 5 - 10 hours on type to get minimums, but 100 hrs, that's a joke... more money than sence I say!!!!! Why does a fresh cpl holder need big twin time anyway, it wont get them their first job any quicker.
By the way rainy I am getting paid $41,000 to do icus!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is that ok.
By the way rainy I am getting paid $41,000 to do icus!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is that ok.
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If you go from a GA company to qf or other reasonable airline that puts you on a reduced training salary I think you will find that it is comparable to your last salary, and as soon as your training is over, you are on the good money,
Do VB pay you the full salary while you are doing your 737 endo? I didnt think they paid till you had finished, but alas i could be wrong, I thought it just cost you for the endorsement and if you stuffed up you were out, if they were paying you during that time and you failed, with the unfair dismisal laws we have they would be obliged to retrain you if you so requested, and lots more little tricks are in these laws.
i dont see how, it costs you the same if not more to join qf than virgin, even as an SO you will be getting more than a VB FO after you add all your allowances together,
Just enjoy what ever you are doing it, i have lived all over the place, some major dives, and if you kept worrying about getting into the nice shinny airliners you would hate the place, I found the best thing to do is work hard at doing your current job better than anyone else has ever done, by doing this you will impress people you meet and progression will be faster. and if you actually take a bit of pride in your current job you will possibly enjoy it, I know i have had fun in all my positions, and for that reason i am not in a rush to join the airlines, i will get there soon enough but i am enjoying what i am doing now so why be in a rush, Haste makes waist.
have fun
duke ( of whatever
)
Do VB pay you the full salary while you are doing your 737 endo? I didnt think they paid till you had finished, but alas i could be wrong, I thought it just cost you for the endorsement and if you stuffed up you were out, if they were paying you during that time and you failed, with the unfair dismisal laws we have they would be obliged to retrain you if you so requested, and lots more little tricks are in these laws.
i dont see how, it costs you the same if not more to join qf than virgin, even as an SO you will be getting more than a VB FO after you add all your allowances together,
Just enjoy what ever you are doing it, i have lived all over the place, some major dives, and if you kept worrying about getting into the nice shinny airliners you would hate the place, I found the best thing to do is work hard at doing your current job better than anyone else has ever done, by doing this you will impress people you meet and progression will be faster. and if you actually take a bit of pride in your current job you will possibly enjoy it, I know i have had fun in all my positions, and for that reason i am not in a rush to join the airlines, i will get there soon enough but i am enjoying what i am doing now so why be in a rush, Haste makes waist.
have fun
duke ( of whatever
)
VB Don't pay you during the actual endorsement phase, but they do pay you during the induction phase, line training etc - all at full pay.
QF pay you at PUIT wages during your training, and then you are still on reduced wages for 2 years (as I understand it - if anyone would like to give a proper explanation I would be most obliged)
Either way YOU pay for it one way or another.
With the Virgin method, you are under no obligation or financial duress to stay if you find something better. I am not sure if QF bond people, but many operators do, and in some cases it is quite a lot of money.
What I don't agree with is what some O/S carriers do, and that is to bond people who are already endorsed - but that is a different discussion.
QF pay you at PUIT wages during your training, and then you are still on reduced wages for 2 years (as I understand it - if anyone would like to give a proper explanation I would be most obliged)
Either way YOU pay for it one way or another.
With the Virgin method, you are under no obligation or financial duress to stay if you find something better. I am not sure if QF bond people, but many operators do, and in some cases it is quite a lot of money.
What I don't agree with is what some O/S carriers do, and that is to bond people who are already endorsed - but that is a different discussion.