I can't make this stuff up.

https://s3.postimg.org/uryjp4wdv/image.jpg

Priceless!! Still no mention of offering a decent salary though. It's not a shortage until they start increasing pay.

Republic does have a $12500 hiring bonus now and highest pay for the regionals. Management held out for 8 years but they had to cave in eventually.

True that, but my take on hiring bonuses is that it's kinda like dangling shiny things. Republic may have a better pay scale, but a lot of companies are using "hiring bonuses" to divert attention away from the poor pay scale. A hiring bonus is fairly meaningless in year 2 of your employment.

Yeah I completely agree. The AA wholy owned are totally guilty of keeping pay low but dangling a flow and a bonus to get new hires.

This is like offering beads and shiny things to aboriginals in times past. How many takers?

PM

"...dangling a flow..."

Zonda (and Piltdown),

It's hard to count on how effectively flows will work...a bit of a roll of the dice, I suppose. They can be a long haul and lots can go wrong with that "promise" [if that's what it is] along the way but a person is getting some experience that helps on the ladder climb.

Whatever happened to that Endeavor-to-Delta program ? I have a vague recollection of it causing some bad feelings with the Endeavor pilots already on the list pre-Endeavor-to-Delta when it was introduced.

An Endeavor guy would speak better to the program, but it was only a guaranteed interview, not a guaranteed job, and you still had to meet the hiring requirements for Delta to qualify for the interview, so not a true flow, but overall not a bad program from what I know.

I think the initial pain came from the fact that the initial EtD program was for new hires. The SSP program was implemented and extended to all pilots on property.

So is anyone struck by the irony of offering the opportunity to apply for a different job as an incentive to accept the job you're offering???

"Hey, if you come to work for us, we might give you the opportunity to get a good job, later"

"...and you still had to meet the hiring requirements for Delta to qualify for the interview, so not a true flow..."

Zonda,

I used to have the details of the E-to-D from the website but changed computers recently. I didn't bother saving a lot of stuff but what I remember is the Endeavor interview was the only one involved. DL personnel were part of the Endeavor interview process and had a major say in hiring the applicant. After meeting some criteria like a certain amount of capt time at Endeavor and slots open at DL, you just flowed up to mainline. That's what caused the big stink. And, you couldn't apply to DL outside the E-to-D pipeline if you were in that pipeline.

I recall a very small number of applicants were hired via that plan and I lost track of the existence of the plan itself. And...my recollection is always subject to revision. ;-)

Here's how it started. Where it stands today...how many were hired...what became of them ? I don't know. For a low-time guy who was going to slog it out in regional hell for years anyway, this may have been a great deal. I'm pretty sure it caused some hard feeling in the ranks.


"As a result,effective June15, the Endeavor-to-Delta Pilot Hiring Program & Commitment (EtD Commitment) program will be used for all pilot candidate interviews at Endeavor.
Pilots offered employment at Endeavor under the EtD Commitment after June 15, 2014, will, upon becoming and remaining eligible per the terms described in this document, be offered employment as Delta pilots."


http://www.endeavorair.com/documents...view_61314.pdf

Time to increase salaries, and think on sponsoring foreigners? (I did all my training in US and have FAA licenses) but it sucks when you can't stay in the US working after all..

spaflyer - few of my friends went down to the states (from Canada) to do just that and none of them currently have a job in North America as no airline/school will sponsor you further than for your training, nor will you be in the US long enough for a green card. 1 guy came back to Canada to convert (spent another 15k+), another went to an Asian airline and paid 90k+ for his type and line training on top of the 65k usd for training...very dumb.......not worth it if you ask me.

It baffles me the US won't even allow Canadian's to seek regional airline jobs as TC and FAA are so similar in terms of pilot requirements.

Advice to any foreign pilot...do the training in your country. The US has enough potential pilots, just need a more secure and attractive package which will come in due time.

Spaflyer - Salaries are slowly increasing and pilots are returning to the profession. I am sure the airlines would love to sponsor foreigners, as this would keep wages low, but as it stands, the US Government has determined that there is not a true pilot shortage.

striker26 - Your friend spent 15k to convert an FAA certificate to a TC license? Did they not know that Canada and the US have an agreement and will automatically convert licenses with just a knowledge test and medical exam?

Yeah, I was scratcing my head about that one too. I converted my certificate to a Papua New Guinea ATPL for a far smaller fee and a written test. I haven't converted to a Canadian certificate myself, but I know pilots who have, and it I don't recall anyone claiming it was a significant expense.

You know of a lot of US pilots flying for Canadian Airlines? I don't mean guys who married a Canadian woman and immigrated, I mean US residents who applied to a Canadian airline and got a job and a work permit and are working as expats. I don’t know any.

I think that it works both ways. Whether that is right or wrong is another question.

The 1500 hour rule is killing aviation programs in US universities that have great reputations like UND and ERAU. How many of the regional accidents in the last two decades have been caused by their graduates vs. some guy who went to a Florida "get your ATP quick program" or local FBO a program? Zero.

Colgan put a non-screened, washout loser as a CA in charge of a DH4 flight to Buffalo. If he had failed the number of check-rides in a university environment, he would've been told to get an English degree. He ran his plane into a bunch of houses.

Guys and ladies like us put in the legitimate work to get a bachelors degree from a good aviation program. We were hired with hours like 322, 283, and 185. And we were given an FO position on an SF3/AR8/ERJ/CRJ. British Airways puts their recruits, without a university degree, on an A320 series aircraft.

The regionals will have to hire from Europe and Canada. It's not a bad gig. Regionals are suffering and boosting pay. You're looking at a 3-5 year gig before getting promoted to a major FO. The baby-boomers are retiring at a pace that far exceeds American supply.

"The regionals will have to hire from Europe and Canada."

Slug,

I'd expect that if things here were as bad as all the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth by experts would seem to suggest, the regionals (and TP freight feeders who advertise constantly) would've made more of an effort to get the ruling junta to allow expats here; there appears to be at least some interest from them in coming. So far, I don't see any of that happening and it'd be a hard secret to keep (and why would they anyway ?). They've had access to Aussies for long enough that any formal pursuit of that supply would've happened by now if they intended to use it; nothing...zero...nada in a formal industry/company-initiated effort that I've heard of.

Barring any events yet to emerge, the only conclusion I can draw from the empirical evidence is there are enough pilots to keep the seats filled and wheels turning despite the meddling of the kakistocracy.

Show me the $$$ (and the quality of life) and I'll apply to a regional. Until then I'll stick with corporate/135.

Sorry guys (for my last post) i should have been more detailed...he went on to do his conversions and then CFI in Canada. What i am saying is sure if you have experience im sure a regional will hire/sponsor you if the pool gets very lean but i wouldn't bank on a US school considering the cost and the added pressure of getting a low hour job there (for international students). Even ATP flight school back in the day stated they will only sponsor Modular training, not the Cadet scheme. So after your CPL, if you're lucky you will continue to get sponsored as a CFI.

My point was that for Canadian's there isn't a reason to go down to Florida to do training AND pay housing and currency conversion. Sure our winters and weather is an issue but would a few months really make a difference when you can save on transport/housing/conversion/time and fees?

The US has a good problem on their hands, lots of need for regional pilots and im sure the majors will continue to expand and have retirees. Here in Canada what sucks is that you spend 1-2 years instructing after your CPL, 2-4 years at a regional flying a Navajo, only to get an interview for a low paying q400 FO job for another 4 before you can even think about an a320/737. And mind you'll be hovering around a 35-45k salary for almost a decade.

Like Tinstaafl mentioned, hardly attractive. We have enough pilots here in Canada, just not attractive positions given the time required to a jet! There are many pilots here who would jump ship down south to fly a CRJ/ERJ at 1500hrs than flying a prop for a decade and for many of my fellow mates i hope that day comes.

Bash me all you want for this, but the days of flying a prop for 8 years to prove you can fly a jet are over, just look in the UK/ME and Asia and even the US now with regionals grabbing people right at 1500. They got MPL programs and iATPL programs buzzing. Maybe im just naive about the aviation industry in Canada, but until you get to a major, the package is hardly better than a full time retail job at a mall, especially here up North!

Lots of guys flew Navajos and turboprops for the last decade here in the US. It wasn't until recently that we've seen all this movement.

We're only in the very beginning of the crisis. United and their acquisition, Continental, outsourced flying to a ridiculous degree. Like putting ERJs on flights between Newark and Atlanta. They can't bring on new 737s fast enough, their customer satisfaction scores have cratered because of regional cancellations due to understaffing. Delta bought all of AirTran/Southwest's 717s because they had to replace the DC-9-50s coming offline from Northwest, plus regional cutbacks.

I'm lucky in that my parents paid for my college education and flight training. However for kids without that advantage, why choose a college degree in flight? You're going to be 100k in debt (if you go public school), and stuck hauling freight on a Metroliner for $17 an hour after graduation since you can't get a job at a regional.

I think university programs provide a modicum of responsibility for future pilots that a Florida/Arizona ATP program does not. They'll take your money for a third/fourth retake of a checkride. The older guys I fly with are mostly former military. I will never compare myself to them, even if they were humping a C-130. Those guys are retiring at an unbelievable pace. A got a line, albeit in a very unpopular domicile, within a year.

"Show me the $$$ (and the quality of life) and I'll apply to a regional. Until then I'll stick with corporate/135."

Different strokes for different folks. I always saw myself hauling passengers as the ultimate bus driver. I have loved commercial aircraft from when I was a kid and watched planes take off at Gravelly Point.

$17 an hour?? I started out as a flight instructor making $33 an hour.

Sky Slug do you mind elaborate little more "quality of life"?
Aviation is a 24/7 365 days a year and not a Monday-Friday 9 to 5
Kind of business.

Sky Slug was quoting me re quality of life. The usual options with regionals are:

1. Move to an *assigned* base. Bad luck if it's not one you want (if they happen to have one that you & your spouse want). Have you considered your partner's career, and your childrens' school. Bad luck, again, if they're comfortably settled where you currently live.

More bad luck if (or more likely, when) the regional closes that base because they didn't get the contract renewed from the major for those routes for the next 3 years.

2. Commute. Now you need to pay - on what can be little more than McDonalds wages - for a crash pad at your assigned base, and you get to spend your 1 or 2 days off between tours commuting back & forth.

"The 1500 hour rule is killing aviation programs in US universities that have great reputations like UND and ERAU. How many of the regional accidents in the last two decades have been caused by their graduates vs. some guy who went to a Florida "get your ATP quick program" or local FBO a program? Zero.

Colgan put a non-screened, washout loser as a CA in charge of a DH4 flight to Buffalo. If he had failed the number of check-rides in a university environment, he would've been told to get an English degree. He ran his plane into a bunch of houses."

Not saying those universities aren't doing good work, but that guy had a terrible record and should've been washed out at many points along the way so I doubt his choice of universities would've made any difference. Aside from that, he could've been an excellent instructor in 172's but that's a bit different to PIC Q400 at night, in weather.

ALPA statement on regional pay:

News Room - ALPA

Just to add some comparisons from a company NOT mentioned in the ALPA article (for whatever that means), here's some recent data on Expressjet...crunch your own numbers:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...nal/expressjet

As of May, 2016, XJT CRJ seniority list, 37% of the pilots had been there 15 years or more.

Oh, and by the way, insignificant retirements:

2016=?
2015=19
2014=19

Attorneys: Airline concerned about pilot's ability before 2009 crash - CNN.com

The problem is that CA Renslow (rest in peace) struggled even at upgrading from a Saab 340 to the DH4. However Colgan was expanding rapidly as Continental put more mainline flying to really cheap regionals like Colgan. We lost a lot of positions at EWR because Continental started using Colgan extensively. Colgan failed to do appropriate background checks on him. They also paired him with an FO (may she rest in peace) that was trained at an FBO and commuted in from SEA via a red-eye FedEx flight through Memphis the previous evening. She slept in the crew room while awaiting her evening's flight.

We had a lot of older pilots at XJT (or BTA, as it was known) and all of them were great to work with. Nearly all of them were Houston-based, and had wives and kids. A lot of them planned on staying for the duration of their career. It made sense for a lot of them to just stay on at the top of payscale until retirement instead of transitioning to FO positions at a major. ExpressJet was a great airline to work for and they made me a better pilot.

The latest headhunting effort by Air Wisconsin:

Airman Trainee

Still leaves a few unanswered questions...

P.S. I saw one version of this announcement saying there are interviews on Sept. 16/17 in SJU. Why SJU ?

Hmmm, interesting. There doesn't seem to be anything involved which assists in getting to 1500 hours from the 500 minimum. Just kind of a placeholder for when you do make it. Wonder how much this position pays. Maybe I could get a dozen or so of these "trainee" positions, do the monthly training modules in the hotel when I'm on the road and cash the paychecks. Be a nice little income supplement.

"There doesn't seem to be anything involved which assists in getting to 1500 hours from the 500 minimum."

A x A,

Yep, that's the problem built into the system these days...and needs to be addressed by the carriers if supply is really all that critical. Some carriers seem to be addressing that by setting up CFI-to-regional programs but I don't see mention of that in the AWA announcement.

Inter-American University is in SJU and has an AABI-certified flight program:

Inter American University of PR ? School of Aeronautics

Maybe AWA feels it's easier for them to get to the broke college students than the other way around so they're doing interviews there ?

And by the time you get to 1500 hours, Air Wisconsin will no longer be around, so double win! (Sarcasm)

" And by the time you get to 1500 hours, Air Wisconsin will no longer be around..."

Z,

The demise of the regional system has certainly been predicted. I'm sure no businessman but have to wonder if the legacies can afford to let it die (or euthanize it) when it provides such a huge chunk of their system flying. I forget the exact number now but remember reading that 40+% of DL's flying is regional feed...and AA is similar ?

Bringing that level of flying under the "real" mainline umbrella would be time consuming and expensive, would it not ? And, it'd require the legacies to hire even greater numbers of pilots than they now need just to replace attrition.

Air Wisconsin currently does not have a contract with any airline. Air Wisconsin's contract with American expired, and AWAC is exercising their option to extend by two years with no secured flying at the end of the extension. Pilots or jumping ship left and right with no announcement of future flying. Many pilots there are only giving the company a couple more months before they too decide to pull chocks.

" Air Wisconsin currently does not have a contract with any airline."

Z,

Yes, it'd be hard to get rats to jump on what they perceive as a sinking ship...particularly with so many other "ships" available.

But as for the regional business model, the big industry players seem devoted to it judging by the amount of their system flying done by it. Changing their ways is possible but lots would have to be undone, most of it seemingly expensive.

Looks like Trans States is putting out the hard sell...including saying, "Don't worry...you won't have to work here very long." Heck of a selling point:

http://www.transstates.net/careers/Pages/pilots.aspx

Anyone able to supply the entire article ?:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-pains-428805/

You just have to register a free account to view the article

Envoy announced pay raises today. First year starting at over $37/HR (up from $26) and singing bonuses (ranging from $15,000-$20,000) and retention bonuses.

PSA also announced a similar pay increase.

This leaves Mesa, Air Wisconsin, and Piedmont without significant first year pay increases.

UAL started a program with Lufthansa. LH has a cadet training center in Arizona. You need to be a CFI. You get hired into the program as a CFI for LH in AZ. After you get your 1500 hrs/ATP, then you go directly to UAL as a narrow-body FO..skipping the regionals. Announced Aug, 2016.