Pilot shortage in USA
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Ha.. You're still caught in the HK mindset. Out of the odd 200K I received from CX monthly, Housing and the tax on it ate up half. Food another 12K a week/ power/ rates/ car ect.. there was very little left.
Here I OWN my own home, and save 4-5,000 USD a month. Zero stress about passing checks, no pollution, no China bulls*t..
It's not how much you make, it is how much you keep.
Here I OWN my own home, and save 4-5,000 USD a month. Zero stress about passing checks, no pollution, no China bulls*t..
It's not how much you make, it is how much you keep.
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Which operator is it ecam? I know there are a few similar paying similar amounts direct entry right now.
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Refugee, I see no contradiction here, I agree savings are a vital part. However, I personally can save way more in HK ( I own my place, I don't have a car etc.), nothing to do with a distorted mindset. I could not meet my financial obligations with 100ish before tax and living in the (not exactly cheap) US. For sure I could not save anything. In the end it is a personal decision depending on personal circumstances.
Ecam, thanks. But where would you start in that table. Bottom right I assume? And are you certain as a captain ( no TR, no experience in corporate) ? And who pays for training? Quite often the devil is in the details..
Ecam, thanks. But where would you start in that table. Bottom right I assume? And are you certain as a captain ( no TR, no experience in corporate) ? And who pays for training? Quite often the devil is in the details..
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 21st Apr 2022 at 05:26.
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Refugee, I see no contradiction here, I agree savings are a vital part. However, I personally can save way more in HK ( I own my place, I don't have a car etc.), nothing to do with a distorted mindset. I could not meet my financial obligations with 100ish before tax and living in the (not exactly cheap) US. For sure I could not save anything. In the end it is a personal decision depending on personal circumstances.
Ecam, thanks. But where would you start in that table. Bottom right I assume? And are you certain as a captain ( no TR, no experience in corporate) ? And who pays for training? Quite often the devil is in the details..
Ecam, thanks. But where would you start in that table. Bottom right I assume? And are you certain as a captain ( no TR, no experience in corporate) ? And who pays for training? Quite often the devil is in the details..
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Ha.. You're still caught in the HK mindset. Out of the odd 200K I received from CX monthly, Housing and the tax on it ate up half. Food another 12K a week/ power/ rates/ car ect.. there was very little left.
Here I OWN my own home, and save 4-5,000 USD a month. Zero stress about passing checks, no pollution, no China bulls*t..
It's not how much you make, it is how much you keep.
Here I OWN my own home, and save 4-5,000 USD a month. Zero stress about passing checks, no pollution, no China bulls*t..
It's not how much you make, it is how much you keep.
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Lovely sentiment as always.. I won't miss most of you.
No, I left with the wife I brought in 04'. Tax on 200 was like 30ish, Mortgage was 80, Rates (yes some years recently Gov't paid some), monthly building fees 3K, Car/petrol, Tax on Education allowance for kids. Yes, I did have a very nice life - but it was no better than my current life.
If you want to live in Tung Chung in a Shoebox that is your choice. My house money there bought my home here.
I am not here to debate you - I've left, I have a great job and I will NEVER step foot in CLK or HK again.
Others have done the same, but you insist it's not likely.
Enjoy your cup noodles and house arrest, I am off on a four day trip to Barbados in the morning.
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Lovely sentiment as always.. I won't miss most of you.
No, I left with the wife I brought in 04'. Tax on 200 was like 30ish, Mortgage was 80, Rates (yes some years recently Gov't paid some), monthly building fees 3K, Car/petrol, Tax on Education allowance for kids. Yes, I did have a very nice life - but it was no better than my current life.
If you want to live in Tung Chung in a Shoebox that is your choice. My house money there bought my home here.
I am not here to debate you - I've left, I have a great job and I will NEVER step foot in CLK or HK again.
Others have done the same, but you insist it's not likely.
Enjoy your cup noodles and house arrest, I am off on a four day trip to Barbados in the morning.
No, I left with the wife I brought in 04'. Tax on 200 was like 30ish, Mortgage was 80, Rates (yes some years recently Gov't paid some), monthly building fees 3K, Car/petrol, Tax on Education allowance for kids. Yes, I did have a very nice life - but it was no better than my current life.
If you want to live in Tung Chung in a Shoebox that is your choice. My house money there bought my home here.
I am not here to debate you - I've left, I have a great job and I will NEVER step foot in CLK or HK again.
Others have done the same, but you insist it's not likely.
Enjoy your cup noodles and house arrest, I am off on a four day trip to Barbados in the morning.
Simply called out your BS biased insinuation of 200k not being enough. Feeling on debating is mutual.
Enjoy Barbados. Won't miss you either. Poes.
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ALPA is now stating there more than enough plots to meet U.S Airline Demand stating there are currently about 1.5 certificated pilots relatives to demand, according to Federal Aviation Administration and Bureau of Labor Statistics data.
https://www.alpa.org/advocacy/pilot-supply
Unfortunately, some airlines planned for the recovery better than others. While some anticipated what would be needed—and when—to meet consumer demand, some don’t have the capacity to train the large number of available pilots or rely too heavily on outsourcing options that cannot meet demand. Others bet against a strong U.S. recovery, and now those airlines’ leaders are trying to blame frontline aviation employees for their bad business decisions by saying they can’t find enough workers.
ALPA was a strong advocate for the law, which required an overhaul in the training and minimum experience requirements for airline pilots. According to National Transportation Safety Board data, since the law’s enactment, Part 121 passenger airline fatalities have decreased by 99.8 percent.
Unfortunately, some airlines are using the fictious claim that there is a lack of available pilots to try to weaken training and safety standards and distract from their profit-first business decisions to cut service and hire inexperienced aviators for less pay instead of focusing on changes to fundamental issues associated with these profit-driven business models. The companies claim, among other things, that the first officer qualification and pilot training requirements mandated by Congress discourage potential airline pilots and are the cause for service cuts to rural communities.
Looking at the numbers, data shows that airlines make operational decisions based on the profitability of each route. Past practice proves that if you pay airline pilots commensurate with their training and experience, not only will you get qualified candidates but also a robust pipeline of future aviators.
Regulations that enhance safety and that have led to the U.S. aviation system’s exemplary safety record should never be used as the scapegoat for profit and should be untouchable by special interests. ALPA will defend against any action that would erode airline safety standards.
—Ed Bastian, Delta Chief Executive Officer, January 13, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha)
“Really there are no shortage of pilots wanting to come to us or really to our regional partners. It's a matter of getting them through the training and getting into the right seat with the right number of hours.”
—Ed Bastian, Delta Chief Executive Officer, January 13, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha)
—Robert Isom, American President and Incoming Chief Executive Officer, January 20, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha)
—Gary Kelly, Southwest Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, January 20, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha)
—Ted Christie, Spirit Airlines Chief Executive Officer, Q1 2022 Earnings Call (Source: Travel Pulse)
—Barry Biffle, Frontier Airlines Chief Executive Officer, Q1 2022 Earnings Call (Source: Seeking Alpha)
https://www.alpa.org/advocacy/pilot-supply
Over the past decade, the United States has produced more than enough certificated pilots to meet airline hiring demands and compensate for retirements, even as new and more rigorous pilot training standards were enacted to enhance safety. In fact, there are currently about 1.5 certificated pilots relative to demand, according to Federal Aviation Administration and Bureau of Labor Statistics data. So, although we don’t have a pilot shortage, we do have a shortage of airline executives willing to stand by their business decisions to cut air service and be upfront about their intentions to skirt safety rules and hire inexperienced workers for less pay.
Financial Lifelines, Jobs Saved
Two years ago, U.S. airlines were on the brink of economic disaster. Bookings dropped more than 90 percent, and executives faced bankruptcies and financial ruin. The federal government and American taxpayers—intervened and helped stop the bleeding. Airlines received not one, not two, but three financial lifelines totaling $63 billion. With leadership from the U.S. labor movement, Congress passed the Payroll Support Program, which kept thousands of pilots and other aviation workers on the job and off unemployment. This helped keep the U.S. economy going, global supply chains open, and critical medical personnel and equipment moving to fight COVID-19. It also positioned the aviation industry to be ready for recovery.Unfortunately, some airlines planned for the recovery better than others. While some anticipated what would be needed—and when—to meet consumer demand, some don’t have the capacity to train the large number of available pilots or rely too heavily on outsourcing options that cannot meet demand. Others bet against a strong U.S. recovery, and now those airlines’ leaders are trying to blame frontline aviation employees for their bad business decisions by saying they can’t find enough workers.
Well-Trained Pilots Save Lives
Now, airlines are cutting service to dozens of cities across the country and laying the groundwork to weaken the most effective aviation safety law of the past decade—the Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010, sometimes referred to as the “1,500-hour rule.”ALPA was a strong advocate for the law, which required an overhaul in the training and minimum experience requirements for airline pilots. According to National Transportation Safety Board data, since the law’s enactment, Part 121 passenger airline fatalities have decreased by 99.8 percent.
Unfortunately, some airlines are using the fictious claim that there is a lack of available pilots to try to weaken training and safety standards and distract from their profit-first business decisions to cut service and hire inexperienced aviators for less pay instead of focusing on changes to fundamental issues associated with these profit-driven business models. The companies claim, among other things, that the first officer qualification and pilot training requirements mandated by Congress discourage potential airline pilots and are the cause for service cuts to rural communities.
Looking at the numbers, data shows that airlines make operational decisions based on the profitability of each route. Past practice proves that if you pay airline pilots commensurate with their training and experience, not only will you get qualified candidates but also a robust pipeline of future aviators.
Regulations that enhance safety and that have led to the U.S. aviation system’s exemplary safety record should never be used as the scapegoat for profit and should be untouchable by special interests. ALPA will defend against any action that would erode airline safety standards.
ALPA’s Recommendations to Maintain a Robust Pilot Pipeline
- Invest in putting more pilots in the U.S. pipeline with several incentives, including helping students pay for expensive flight training costs, subsidizing loans for flight training in conjunction with two-year and four-year aviation colleges and universities; and exempting students from paying interest on loans while in school.
- Align federal funding to bring pilot academic education and training to the level of other highly skilled professions.
- Provide substantial grants to expand aviation and flight degree programs.
- Increasing the number of students who graduate from a certified two- or four-year aviation program who obtain the license needed to become an airline pilot.
- Increase awareness of aviation job opportunities with today’s emerging workforce, including the support and mentorship they need to enter the profession with confidence.
- Recruit a more diverse workforce, providing role models to ensure minorities and women can see themselves as the airline pilot workforce of the future.
- Increase Title IV funding for hiring professional pilot graduates from colleges and universities that serve underrepresented communities, such as the historically black colleges and universities.
- Provide substantial grants to minority-serving educational institutions to start aviation programs that serve underrepresented communities and introduce them to aviation experiences.
- Maintain the ICAO and EASA age standard for retirement
TELL CONGRESS: OPPOSE ATTEMPTS TO RAISE THE MANDATORY RETIREMENT AGE FOR U.S. PILOTS
TAKE ACTION NOWU.S. Mainline CEOs on Pilot Supply
Delta Air Lines
“We are not having any problem at all at Delta hiring and getting great pools of candidates.”—Ed Bastian, Delta Chief Executive Officer, January 13, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha)
“Really there are no shortage of pilots wanting to come to us or really to our regional partners. It's a matter of getting them through the training and getting into the right seat with the right number of hours.”
—Ed Bastian, Delta Chief Executive Officer, January 13, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha)
American Airlines
“We’re going to have plenty of pilots. The biggest issue that we’re dealing with is the throughput of pilots and getting them through training.”—Robert Isom, American President and Incoming Chief Executive Officer, January 20, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha)
Southwest Airlines
“I think we’ll have plenty of access to pilots and flight attendants. So I feel good that our staffing plan is going to come to fruition. And then the question just is, as we bring the people on and we mitigate the premium pay, we mitigate some of the regular operations, we run a more stable operation, can we—will we see different behaviors? And if we do, that gives us upside.”—Gary Kelly, Southwest Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, January 20, 2022 (Source: Seeking Alpha)
Spirit Airlines
“The lines were all trending up. More people were applying to get pilot licenses, ATP licenses and instructor licenses. The COVID pandemic impacted that, mostly because none of us were hiring pilots in 2020. We anticipate you could interpret that data to suggest it will probably be closer to what you’ve experienced in the past, Supply and demand will work itself out over that period of time.”—Ted Christie, Spirit Airlines Chief Executive Officer, Q1 2022 Earnings Call (Source: Travel Pulse)
Frontier Airlines
“Well, I don't know if it's overblown for some airlines. I mean I think there's some airlines with some real challenges. But in our particular case in the near term, we have an excess of the pilots for example. And so, while we've seen some attrition greater than years past, Frontier is really in a fortunate position. We actually have a lot of tailwinds in our pilot workforce and our recruiting success versus some of the low-cost and regional airlines.”—Barry Biffle, Frontier Airlines Chief Executive Officer, Q1 2022 Earnings Call (Source: Seeking Alpha)
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Thise statements at the end from the airline CEOs. Utter gigantic lies. Delta for instance, "not having any issues at kur regionals"? They're paying obscene amounts of sign-on and retention bonuses well into 6 figures at their wholly owned reginals having already doubled their starting pay not only hiring direct entry captains but those very very low hours pilots they are hiring also. At delta's wholly owned regional they pay the cost of putting them thru very expensive cadet style sim training programs thru CAE and then put them in class as soon as they hit 1500 hours. To say they're green behind the ears is a ridiculous understatement. Have you ever heard of inbound and outbound spoilers? I have with my own ears.
American had their director of HR give an auditorium talk 6 months ago in Dallas headquarters. He talked about how they need to hire 2000 pilots a year for the next few years. How the training department has never done more than close to 1000/yr in the past and they've been tasked with analyzing what they can accomplish to ramp up and how soon and at what cost and how they don't know how this can possibly be accomplished. Then He was asked how many pilot applications they have on file. He answered 12,000+. And he immediately followed up by saying " but out of those, only 2000-3000 meet our minimum hiring standards". (A friend who was in the audience showed me a phone recording of this."). That's 2000-3000 pilots they can call for an interview. Even if they hire every single interviewee, do the math how quickly they'll run out. Lowering standards, paying major sign-on bonuses to poach from other majors, re-caliberting fleets (bigger airplanes/less frequencies) are among what they can do to make ends meet with less than needed pilots.
American just admitted they have 100 regional jets grounded due to no pilots. And the delta guys says "we have no problem... ". They pay the same obscene amounts of bonuses and doubled salaries to attract. I'm only saying obscene because of comparison to what was paid before.
Why do you think united just signed a new contract with the highest pilot pay in the industry? Because they see no problem attracting pilots for their existing demand?
Prediction is that unless another major event such as 9/11 ,covid , economical crash etc intervenes, most US regionals will have to shut down due to no pilots. Hiring foreign pilots has proven to be a pipe dream also. It takes very very long to process an application and there's no guarantee of approval anyway.
Sh!tty airlines such as sh!tblue, frontier, spirit, alaska will be next.
ALL US airlines are sh!tting their pants about the pilot shortage, as they were just before covid hit. Covid gave them breathing space to do something. They offered early retirements and lost a further 10,000 pilots. Short sighted incompetent Idiots. Hearing CEOs lie is exactly what's to be expected, about this or any other issue.
They can ingenously say the ongoing high amounts of cancellatuons at the big majors is due to their lack of training capacity, which is true for now. United has pretty much stopped hiring to let their training department catch up. But it can only be lied about for so long. What is happening at the lower scales of the industry (100 aircraft grounded due to no pilots at just one major's regional) will creep up to the higher scales. Sooner than later. It's already happening sporadically and they've been covering it up. As it gets bigger they won't be able to. You can already see it for yourself. There are an unusually high number of aircraft parked idle outside major airlines maintenance hangers not being worked on... and not flying either. I see this with my own eyes. It's not normal. Where there used to be 2-3 airplanes in for mx, there's now 6 with only 3 being worked on. And the same airlines are pulling out of some routes due to "lack of capacity".
There will never be a shortage of pilots, for the airlines which pay the best/most compensation package. You get what you pay for.
This shortage of pilots crippling the US airlines is the direct result of what theyve done for the last 20+ years paying peanuts low enough to qualify their first officers for food stamps, to offer the pax low low priced tickets. Every year less people entered this profession because of that. Now it's going to cost them not only much more than they think they saved back then, but also it will cost the existence of several of them, hopefully. It's well deserved.
I'm also impatiently waiting for cathay's demise due to not being able to crew it's aircraft due to shortage of pilots and the loss of its safety record & reputation caused by replacing experienced pilots with inexperienced cheaper pilots.
American had their director of HR give an auditorium talk 6 months ago in Dallas headquarters. He talked about how they need to hire 2000 pilots a year for the next few years. How the training department has never done more than close to 1000/yr in the past and they've been tasked with analyzing what they can accomplish to ramp up and how soon and at what cost and how they don't know how this can possibly be accomplished. Then He was asked how many pilot applications they have on file. He answered 12,000+. And he immediately followed up by saying " but out of those, only 2000-3000 meet our minimum hiring standards". (A friend who was in the audience showed me a phone recording of this."). That's 2000-3000 pilots they can call for an interview. Even if they hire every single interviewee, do the math how quickly they'll run out. Lowering standards, paying major sign-on bonuses to poach from other majors, re-caliberting fleets (bigger airplanes/less frequencies) are among what they can do to make ends meet with less than needed pilots.
American just admitted they have 100 regional jets grounded due to no pilots. And the delta guys says "we have no problem... ". They pay the same obscene amounts of bonuses and doubled salaries to attract. I'm only saying obscene because of comparison to what was paid before.
Why do you think united just signed a new contract with the highest pilot pay in the industry? Because they see no problem attracting pilots for their existing demand?
Prediction is that unless another major event such as 9/11 ,covid , economical crash etc intervenes, most US regionals will have to shut down due to no pilots. Hiring foreign pilots has proven to be a pipe dream also. It takes very very long to process an application and there's no guarantee of approval anyway.
Sh!tty airlines such as sh!tblue, frontier, spirit, alaska will be next.
ALL US airlines are sh!tting their pants about the pilot shortage, as they were just before covid hit. Covid gave them breathing space to do something. They offered early retirements and lost a further 10,000 pilots. Short sighted incompetent Idiots. Hearing CEOs lie is exactly what's to be expected, about this or any other issue.
They can ingenously say the ongoing high amounts of cancellatuons at the big majors is due to their lack of training capacity, which is true for now. United has pretty much stopped hiring to let their training department catch up. But it can only be lied about for so long. What is happening at the lower scales of the industry (100 aircraft grounded due to no pilots at just one major's regional) will creep up to the higher scales. Sooner than later. It's already happening sporadically and they've been covering it up. As it gets bigger they won't be able to. You can already see it for yourself. There are an unusually high number of aircraft parked idle outside major airlines maintenance hangers not being worked on... and not flying either. I see this with my own eyes. It's not normal. Where there used to be 2-3 airplanes in for mx, there's now 6 with only 3 being worked on. And the same airlines are pulling out of some routes due to "lack of capacity".
There will never be a shortage of pilots, for the airlines which pay the best/most compensation package. You get what you pay for.
This shortage of pilots crippling the US airlines is the direct result of what theyve done for the last 20+ years paying peanuts low enough to qualify their first officers for food stamps, to offer the pax low low priced tickets. Every year less people entered this profession because of that. Now it's going to cost them not only much more than they think they saved back then, but also it will cost the existence of several of them, hopefully. It's well deserved.
I'm also impatiently waiting for cathay's demise due to not being able to crew it's aircraft due to shortage of pilots and the loss of its safety record & reputation caused by replacing experienced pilots with inexperienced cheaper pilots.
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In the News -
Some pilots flying for American Airlines' subsidiary regional airlines will soon make nearly twice their current salary in a groundbreaking new pay scheme.
- Pilots at American Airlines regional carriers Envoy Air and Piedmont Airlines are getting a big pay raise.
- Pilots at both airlines will make an average of 57% more than Delta Air Lines' wholly-owned regional Endeavour Air.
- Line check airmen at both airlines will make $427.50 per hour under the new contract.
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The thing people forget is that if you were to go to a regional without FAA time you'd be looking at 1.5-2 years min before command, add another year at least for LTC upgrade and other year for Checking. That offer expires 2024, barely enough time to become a Captain. What is the point? SO earns more sitting around their shoebox walkup.
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The thing people forget is that if you were to go to a regional without FAA time you'd be looking at 1.5-2 years min before command, add another year at least for LTC upgrade and other year for Checking. That offer expires 2024, barely enough time to become a Captain. What is the point? SO earns more sitting around their shoebox walkup.
I mean it pays for your MBA and then you can piss off doing something else !
You got to start somewhere.
Having said that there are no Americans left here and none are coming unless they need heavy time to apply for Atlas.
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The thing people forget is that if you were to go to a regional without FAA time you'd be looking at 1.5-2 years min before command, add another year at least for LTC upgrade and other year for Checking. That offer expires 2024, barely enough time to become a Captain. What is the point? SO earns more sitting around their shoebox walkup.
It doesn't take 1-2 years at one airline to get the 1000hr 121 time needed to upgrade. You can at 2 years go to another airline, collect the bonus, get matched payscale longevity, and upgrade right away with your 1000 hr 121 time from previous airline. Cash bonus + matched payscale longevity at their higher per hour rate. That's how they attract pilots from other revional airlines. There will soon be another regional which will beat this ENVOY & PIEDMONT deal. Those who don't will keep losing pilots badly. It's a lovely show to watch...
Another anecdote for you, I was dong my annual medical in HK yesterday and the AME mentioned that he had been doing a lot of FAA medical renewals for CX guys who were leaving these last few months. So I would guess that would back up bufe01's statement on no Americans left in HK, (apart from the business jets perhaps.)
If you hadn't noticed yet, somebody has moved your cheese...
If you hadn't noticed yet, somebody has moved your cheese...
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Sometimes numbers do lie.
I'm an FAA ATP, and I account for 1 of those numbers on the blue bars. So do my colleagues that also did their checkrides over the past 8 years. None of us holding a working visa, so, as unrestricted ATP holders we should not be accounted as supply.
(I know someone will ask why we obtain a FAA ATP then. Some regulations are so messed up in a way that you'll only get the job if you hold an FAA ATPL, since the country's aviation authority can't back up a single license they've issued, as they might be even completely fake. Other than that, ratings do not expire. And yet, having one helps if you already have it)
I'm an FAA ATP, and I account for 1 of those numbers on the blue bars. So do my colleagues that also did their checkrides over the past 8 years. None of us holding a working visa, so, as unrestricted ATP holders we should not be accounted as supply.
(I know someone will ask why we obtain a FAA ATP then. Some regulations are so messed up in a way that you'll only get the job if you hold an FAA ATPL, since the country's aviation authority can't back up a single license they've issued, as they might be even completely fake. Other than that, ratings do not expire. And yet, having one helps if you already have it)
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Not even a long weekend and the chaos will scare off travellers for years to come.. Somehow, same as at CX, geeks with spreadsheets and unquestionable "managers and CEO's" are in charge, scrounging for pennies to shore up their obvious ineptitude.. This folks, is your new world order
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...llations-chaos
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...llations-chaos