FAA flight training regulations

[Marekjefrajer]

Thank you for a very good explanation! However, I do have a follow-up question:

Originally Posted by MarkerInbound

A CFI could own their training aircraf or instruct in the student's aircraft. The normal situation is they work for a flight school either Part 61 or Part 141 and teach in the school's aircraft.

What do you mean by "they work for a flight school either Part 61 or Part 141"? As far as I am concerned, Part 61 and Part 141 are two means of obtaining flight instruction, either from "independent" flight instructor (CFI) or from an instructor under an approved flight school, respectively. In other words, there is nothing like a flight school under Part 61, am I correct?

Marek

[MarcK]

Part 141 is flight schools. Part 61 is independent instructors (whether or not they work for e.g. a flying club). I looked it up (so I can teach the correct answer) and found this:

Only FAA certificated Part 141 and/or 142 schools that are approved and participating in the Student and Exchange Visa Information Service (SEVIS) program are authorized to issue an I-20 form to a prospective student upon their enrollment into a course, which the prospective student needs to request the change of status and receive the subsequent student visa.

and

Part 61 flight schools and independent flight instructors may train a foreign national if that alien is a legal permanent resident or in a work status (H-type visa) with extended stay privileges or a refugee in asylum status with appropriate DHS documentation. They also may train a foreign national on an F-1 (academic visa) provided that the student is still enrolled and attending the college or university as shown on the F-1 and the student has notified SEVIS of the additional training being received at a non-SEVIS approved school.

[Marekjefrajer]

Originally Posted by MarcK

Part 141 is flight schools. Part 61 is independent instructors (whether or not they work for e.g. a flying club).

Just to make it clear for me. Part 141 is a regulation for na "FAA approved flight school".

Part 61 is like me and my friend are both CFI, we don`t want to work for a local "FAA approved flight school", so we buy an aircraft, establish a company called for example "Pilot training LLC" and just like that we start providing flying lessons to whoever comes to us. We don`t need any syllabuses, there is no strict oversight from an FAA, only our students need to gain more flight hours before they are allowed to a check ride. Is that correct?

[LTCTerry]

Originally Posted by Marekjefrajer

Just to make it clear for me. Part 141 is a regulation for na "FAA approved flight school".

Part 61 is like me and my friend are both CFI... Is that correct?

No.

If you and your friend did this, it would be operating under Part 61.

The place where I fly has three 172s and an Arrow for rent. They offer private, instrument, and commercial training. They have been in business since the 1940s. They do charter in a King Air. It is an extremely professional business that conducts flight training under Part 61.

The most practical benefits I am aware of for going Part 141 are that you can borrow money for it or use Veterans Benefits. While the part 141 syllabus permits training in fewer hours, these hours are often much more costly, so if you don't complete in the minimum time(s) then you have spent a lot of extra money.

[Propsforever]

Marek,

you can even provide Training in your students Aircraft. This worked in some Countrys in Europe as well, before EASA/JAA...

If you have a EASA CPL/IR at least, you dont Need a Training course.

In 2010 it went like this:
You Need your EASA Licence "Authentificated".- Than you make a Date with your choosen Fisdo ( They check into your licence, if you have the Minimum hrs/Training required. The FAA recognizes all ICAO compiant Training) - After this you do your 80 Question ATP written Exam - Passing your Written, you look for an Examiner and take your Checkride.( and be Aware the ORAL Exam is the one to fear, be prepared)

As far as i know there has been a Change recently, so that Foreign Pilots transfering there Licence Need a 10hrs Course for test preparation, but i dont remember the exact wording.

[ph-sbe]

Originally Posted by havick

It’s USCIS that lets you in the country, and TSA that allows a foreign person to train. It’s really as simple as that.

USCIS does not let anyone in the country. USCIS approves or denies immigrant and non-immigrant petitions. USCIS can also change your status once you are lawfully admitted to the U.S.

If you are abroad, the sequence of events for anything other than a tourist/business visa, usually involves the following process:

1. A petition is filed by either the beneficiary, a family member, prospect employer, or an approved educational institution provides a form I-20 with ink signature.
2. USCIS approves the petition (not needed when using a form I-20)
3. The beneficiary applies for a visa at a consulate
4. Assuming the visa is approved, the beneficiary travels to the U.S. and applies for admission in the class stated on the visa.
5. CBP admits the alien for the time documented on the for I-94.

If someone enters the country on a visitor visa (b1/b2) or on the visa waiver program (VWP), then an ordinary flight school that's not an approved educational institution will have no way to verify the legal status of a prospective student.

Originally Posted by zondaracer

I have seen many cases where the TSA have approved foreigners on the visa waiver program to start training and I had to explain to flight school management that this was not legal.

While you are without a doubt correct, the average flight school does not have access to DHS records. The closest thing they could do is ask for I-9 documentation, but that could lead to false negatives (someone may be in the country legally, but not authorized to work, such as L2 status holders). In short, I don't think that a flight school will get in trouble once the TSA has approved someone. Worst case scenario, the student will be deported and barred from re-entering the country for violating their visa conditions.

[B2N2]

Marek, this is getting very convoluted and everybody tries to shout the loudest.
What are you trying to get done exactly?

And yes, many flight schools are Part 61.
See my earlier explanation.

[MarcK]

If you want to use your FAA CFI credentials to teach foreign students under Part 61 you must register with TSA as a Flight Training Provider and keep the appropriate records. Additionally, as a Part 61 provider, you are limited to students that have long term residence status (i.e. Green card, H-type visa, some F-1 visas),

[Marekjefrajer]

From the beginning

Originally Posted by B2N2

Marek, this is getting very convoluted and everybody tries to shout the loudest.
What are you trying to get done exactly?

And yes, many flight schools are Part 61.
See my earlier explanation.

Ok, your answer from 01:07 was useful, but still…
I do not plan obtaining FAA pilot license, I mentioned my job just to make it obvious that I have some level of knowledge of easa regulations. Apart from working I also study at a university and currently write a thesis concerning pilot training under easa and whether it is possible to obtain/provide flight training lessons outside of either an approved training organisation (ATO) or a declared training organisation (DTO), or not. It was told to me that under FAA it might be possible to get flight training "on someones garden", no training organisation, no flight school, with or without training manuals and syllabus previously approved by FAA, while this training can be credited in full to minimum flight requirements for obtaining a pilot license. In other words, to work as a flight instructor under easa, in 99 % of cases you have to work for some training organisation, you cannot provide the training on your own, for example as Mr. Marekjefrajer; Mr. Marekjefrajer has to be employed by some training organisation and provide flight training to students/clients of this organisation. Let’s say that you can be the owner / the only employee of a DTO, but you would still have to have established this training organisation before (establishing of any organisation / school / club is what I am trying to avoid). – as far as I am concerned now, training outside of any school / organisation / flying club etc. (just under a tree, on your own) may be done under Part 61 regulation, is that correct?

Question number two: What is the difference between authorized instructor and certificated flight instructor from the legislative point of view and is there any difference between their rights? LTCTerry answered me this question in the first comment to this topic. However, training for Private pilot (airplane) underpart 61 talks about 20 hours with authorized instructor, the same pilot license under part 141 talks about 20 hours of flight training from a certificated flight instructor... so apparently there must be a difference, otherwise why would FAA have both, if they were the same? And if I become a flight instructor according to training under Part 61 rules, am I an authorized or certificated flight instructor?

I am sorry for being so slow in understanding the topic, firstly I am not so familiar with FAA regulations „logic“ and secondly as a foreign speaker I may understand the meaning of words in definitions, but not 100 % of the message of the definition/regulation... hence I might be asking something that is obvious for you as english speakers.

[MarkerInbound]

Authorized instructor is defined in part 61.1.

Authorized instructor means—

(i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

(ii) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or

(iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority.

In the airline world, many times the "instructor" does not hold a CFI certificate. But the airline authorizes them to instruct their pilots. In your example, the "authorized instructor" for part 61 is a CFI.

As to your first question, I hold a FAA CFI with SE, ME and instrument airplane ratings and a glider rating. My first aviation job was with a fixed base operator (FBO). It was a company that operated an airport for the city. They sold fuel, rented hangars, did airplane maintenance and provided instruction under part 61. People could call and say they wanted to learn to fly and the FBO would rent them an airplane and schedule an instructor for them. The person would pay the FBO and I would be paid by the FBO. But the FBO did not have an official syllabus approved by the FAA. We only had to make sure all the requirements listed in part 61 were met. Currently I spend some time at a glider club. There are several members who hold glider instructor certificates. The club has a syllabus of what items should to be covered in each lesson. But it is the club's own idea of how a glider pilot should be taught. There is no FAA approval. Again, instruction under Part 61.

If you have your own airplane or glider, I could provide instruction independently from the glider club or any airport flight school. As you said, conducting the ground school and briefings "under a tree."