US Regional Headhunting
Thread Starter
Looks like University of North Dakota has set up a "pathway" program with Sun Country Airlines for UND's grads. Appears to follow the university-instructing-airline model. But...how will this be better than the pipelines leading to a regional ? The regionals lead to much quicker access to turbine PIC time (assuming the career-destination airlines will think this is important enough to be a discriminator) whereas upgrade at Sun Country will likely be rather long:
"Eligible students at UND will be required to complete their flight hours at the university. These hours can be and often are accrued when students become paid flight instructors for the school. This means that more qualified student-pilots will remain at UND as flight instructors and continue teaching up-and-coming pilots."
http://media.aero.und.edu/avit.und.e...un-Country.pdf
"Eligible students at UND will be required to complete their flight hours at the university. These hours can be and often are accrued when students become paid flight instructors for the school. This means that more qualified student-pilots will remain at UND as flight instructors and continue teaching up-and-coming pilots."
http://media.aero.und.edu/avit.und.e...un-Country.pdf
Last edited by bafanguy; 8th Nov 2018 at 09:41.
Thread Starter
Yet another pathway program. This one between Ameriflight, a TP freight outfit, and some larger airline companies:
“Under the program, a Pathway Pilot reaching the outlined benchmarks will be recommended for Atlas' ATP/CTP program. Successful completion of the program and acceptance of employment will result in the pilot being placed in an aircraft class, such as the 747 with Atlas Air for higher-time pilots or the 737 with Southern Air for lower-time, new-hire pilots.”
Atlas Air And Southern Air Sign Pathway Program Agreement With Ameriflight | Aero-News Network
“Under the program, a Pathway Pilot reaching the outlined benchmarks will be recommended for Atlas' ATP/CTP program. Successful completion of the program and acceptance of employment will result in the pilot being placed in an aircraft class, such as the 747 with Atlas Air for higher-time pilots or the 737 with Southern Air for lower-time, new-hire pilots.”
Atlas Air And Southern Air Sign Pathway Program Agreement With Ameriflight | Aero-News Network
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I have no doubt that eventually all the qualified and experienced pilots will end up in the majors. But there will be nobody left to fly the regionals and puddle-jumpers and Part 135 on demand, as well as nobody left to be flight instructors and the like. Maybe Corporate flying will remain because those guys have deep pockets.
What happens to the industry then? Nobody learning to fly, nobody wanting to be a commercial pilot willing to pay the huge costs and take the 7 or 8 years it will take to get qualified and experienced just to apply for that SIC job at Delta? (A couple less years if they don't want a degree, but at least 10 - 15 years to become fully qualified to be a PIC of a Boeing). It is too late to stop the hemorrhaging and too late to start to fix it. We should have started 8 years ago but that was when Congress decided to increase the requirements to a level that was unnecessary, unrealistic and ineffective, driving a spike into our own hearts. Follow the money: Why did they do this? I think the answer is obvious now.
And what about the level of experience at the top? When the present 65 yr old captains retire who will take their place? Inexperienced SICs, guys and gals who have only been sitting there for a few years because the airlines are so desperate they will take anybody with a pulse if they have 1500 hours no matter what value? And when these low experienced pilots take the command seat will they be able to pass on what they know to the next generation? I say this because I know the people the airlines are taking now. Because there are so few applicants who would have been qualified under the old system, with competitive qualifications and experience, they are taking literally anybody who meets the minimums and a lot who don't. I know guys who haven't got a multi rating or any experience multi engine and no turbine time and no ATP being offered a job at the second-level airlines (Horizon etc) and the airline will pay for their multi rating, pay for their ATP course and check ride, and put them in the right seat for less than two years with a promise of command after that and serious bonuses, they are so desperate. One of those guys told me that he only had to return a signature on a contract by fax or email to lock in the job, and he was 59 years old at the time the offer was made! He is currently doing multi engine training at the airline expense. It won't be long before the majors are doing the same.
Meanwhile the Part 135 companies are going broke because they can't compete with the salaries and conditions offered by the Part 121 companies and many cannot offer SIC training because they fly single pilot. They cannot put bare 500 hour pilots or even 1500 hour pilots into those jobs without seeing their airplanes damaged or destroyed by the lack of experience and anybody they do employ is only taking a place-hold job in preparation for moving up to the airlines, and to the big freight companies. Turnover and training is intense in the 135 companies and it is impossible to find instructors, even ground instructors.
A total mess, a dog's breakfast, a swill. No longer fun, not knowing if the company you work for will even be in business tomorrow. I advise newbies to hurry up and start training because there will be no jobs for them in about five years after the smaller outfits have gone belly up.
Without those 135 companies, and 91 as well, there will be no pool of qualified people for the airlines to dip into and in the not too distant future I forecast that there will be no aviation industry in this country, at least as we know it now. The other countries are not hamstrung by this stupid 1500 hour rule and they are training gangbusters to maintain their ranks. We are not, because we cannot even find instructors or keep them more than a year until they get 1500 hours and disappear. I also forecast that we will be hearing lots of different accents in the US airspace as those pilots are attracted to the airlines here in the USA who cannot find qualified or experienced pilots among the US ranks. Better learn some Chinese and Korean, chaps!
We brag about our safety record. We are at a pinnacle in safety right now. But if we take away our advantage in experience by replacing our pilots with those who have only the bare minimum legal requirements the accident rate must go up. We are already seeing it with the increase in incidents and history shows this is a good indicator of trouble to come.
So the Congress and the FAA have got their plan to destroy aviation moving right along, supported by ALPA, and the rest of us, head in the sand or stunned at the stupidity, can do nothing about it.
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banganguy, normally I agree with but in this case I see your post entirely as a paradox in itself.
The real reason we are in this mess in the first place is the old guard legacy pilots that gave away scope (to line their pockets) and allowed regionals blossom into their current size on Z scale wages. Knock on effect being stagnation into the well paid jobs. Obviously age 65 and 9/11 exacerbated the situation, but cannot be blamed in whole.
The last 10-15 years minimal amount of prospective pilots saw Aviation as a viable career, given the poor return on investment, with very minimal odds of bagging a legacy job.
The lack of qualified pilots is, and has always been a pay issue not the 1500 hour rule.
If the regionals weren’t allowed to turn into the bohemith’s as they currently exist, legacy’s would have been able to be more selective as well as grooming/training junior pilots into their system. Too late now the horse has bolted and the previous generation of pilots, unions and greedy bean counters runnning legacy carriers are to blame.
so yes looking back, in part you are right, follow the money. But follow the money back 15-20 years ago when the regionals ramped up as mainline flying was outsourced to the lowest bidders.
chickens are coming home to roost.
Nothing is being done to fix this problem. It will only get worse and the entire industry is in peril.
There is no work ethic any longer as the liberals have done their best to build the entitlement society, but the biggest hit has been the 1500 hour rule. A rule that had nothing to do with reality, was not driven by the Colgan accident as claimed in fact it makes the causes of the Colgan accident more prevalent. I can only conclude that, as it is usually done in this country, some special interests paid to have it pushed through. And it is supported by ALPA. Look no further.
Now a young'un who wants a career is faced with years more training, years more flying as a CFI or bush pilot in rough conditions, huge increases in debt, merely to have an ability to knock on a regional airline's door and ask for a low paying job as a SIC. No guarantees, no real career prospects, a risk that might not pay off. Why would anyone want to do that? So the youngsters are staying away in droves. There are not enough driven wannabe pilots out there to make it up, as the FAA itself will tell you. It was a crazy idea and it is predictably ruining this industry.
Those of you who are already at the top of course don't know or care, and you seem unable to look ahead to 5 years down the road when your airline too will be reducing flights, losing big money and going into at least Chapter 11. Many bigger airlines will fail as the smaller ones are doing already and suddenly there will be plenty of pilots available for me as they struggle to find jobs to pay back their huge financial liabilities but I fear it will be too late. My jobs will have gone way before that. At the lower end of the scale I am already hurting. I don't know how much longer small operators like ours can last. Probably not 5 years. And it is not due to salaries, it is due to the fact that there are simply no qualified pilots looking for work. So long as they can go directly to the bigger outfits why waste their time?
That must inevitably reduce the standards and it must lead to an uptick in incidents and accidents and it has already caused the loss of many lower-level aviation businesses including Part 135 and airports, and even mechanics are now in short supply.
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Meh, my enjoyment of it has sort of diminished with repetition. The bottom line is his 135 operation has a business model of paying pilots a relatively low wage for a relatively high level of commitment of their time. Now the market for pilot labor has changed and they can't find pilots willing to be perpetually on call for the amount they're offering. That's the free market at work. It doesn't always work to keep you supplied labor for unrealistically low salary. His outfit could certainly attract pilots with the requisite Alaska experience who would jump at the chance to be at home, if only they'd offer a competitive wage, and a schedule that didn't have them perpetually on call. But they aren't willing to offer terms and conditions whcih are competitive in today's pilot market.
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I advertise hard and rarely get someone who meets my most basic needs, and usually someone else with deeper pockets poaches him before I can even start his training or he will have some shortfall such as no multi turbine time but I will take him and train him and when he has 250 hours multi turbine he leaves to a better job. Usually to the freight companies where he can fly a 747.
Boofhead, you sound like every other conservative leaning self-entitled management troll bemoaning the lack of serfs to toil in the fields for minimum wage. There is no shortage of workers for companies that offer attractive packages. There always will be a shortage for companies who don't.
My old neighbor used to bitch and moan constantly at the lack of skilled machinists. He was paying $11.00/hr in 2013 when last we spoke, and later had to close his once profitable machine shop. He was pretty bitter about people not wanting to work hard for poverty wages while he enjoyed a plush UMC lifestyle.
“Pay up or shut up” was once considered pithy advice.
My old neighbor used to bitch and moan constantly at the lack of skilled machinists. He was paying $11.00/hr in 2013 when last we spoke, and later had to close his once profitable machine shop. He was pretty bitter about people not wanting to work hard for poverty wages while he enjoyed a plush UMC lifestyle.
“Pay up or shut up” was once considered pithy advice.
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Meh, my enjoyment of it has sort of diminished with repetition. The bottom line is his 135 operation has a business model of paying pilots a relatively low wage for a relatively high level of commitment of their time. Now the market for pilot labor has changed and they can't find pilots willing to be perpetually on call for the amount they're offering. That's the free market at work. It doesn't always work to keep you supplied labor for unrealistically low salary. His outfit could certainly attract pilots with the requisite Alaska experience who would jump at the chance to be at home, if only they'd offer a competitive wage, and a schedule that didn't have them perpetually on call. But they aren't willing to offer terms and conditions whcih are competitive in today's pilot market.
Your comment typifies that of the Millenials, and the liberals, who believe that the world was set up for their benefit and does not require a commitment.
The type of work we do is precisely what you describe; on call, no schedule, demanding flying and a need to be at the top of your game if you are going to fly safely. It is fun, satisfying and challenging. A good pilot would see that and not refuse to give it a go because it does not pay as much as he might think he is worth. I have flown practically everywhere and everything and consider what we do as the best flying job ever. You probably want to fly an Airbus (and face it; you don't really "fly" those), stay in good hotels, have a schedule and a great income, and wear a flash pilot uniform. I am sorry for you if so, because you have not really experienced what aviation can offer. It is not all money.
I would gladly pay more money for a pilot who could do what is needed in this job safely and efficiently but for some time now that pilot does not exist. For example a few years back, before this stupid 1500 hour rule came in and put the stick in the bicycle wheel spokes, I could get a pilot with 4500 hours, 3000 command, 2500 multi engine turbine, and Alaska experience and we paid that guy a salary and flying hours at the top of the scale for Alaska. Now I might get someone with half that time and no multi engine turbine, spend a month or more training him, teaching him how to fly Alaska, then he stays three months and leaves for Atlas. I would be glad to pay pilots what they are worth, but only if the pilots would take a pay cut because some are not worth much at all. Of course I cannot do that but it sticks in my craw to pay less experienced pilots almost double what I would have paid for one who could actually do the job and would honour a commitment to stay and pay back the money and time spent training him.
You obviously see things in a very one-sided manner and believe the world owes you a living. You don't care about the industry; the mess being created that will deny the youngsters who will follow you similar opportunities because the companies that provided you and your mates with a great living and great flying opportunities are soon to go out of business. When we go, the levels above us in the aviation strata will not be far behind.
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Of course that is an opinion you are entitled to, but there is a limit to what can be paid to the pilots and still break even. If the cost cannot be passed on to the customer, whatever it is for (wages, fuel, maintenance) then the company goes under. That is capitalism and nobody runs a business at a loss. At least for long.
Your comment typifies that of the Millenials, and the liberals, who believe that the world was set up for their benefit and does not require a commitment.
The type of work we do is precisely what you describe; on call, no schedule, demanding flying and a need to be at the top of your game if you are going to fly safely. It is fun, satisfying and challenging. A good pilot would see that and not refuse to give it a go because it does not pay as much as he might think he is worth. I have flown practically everywhere and everything and consider what we do as the best flying job ever. You probably want to fly an Airbus (and face it; you don't really "fly" those), stay in good hotels, have a schedule and a great income, and wear a flash pilot uniform. I am sorry for you if so, because you have not really experienced what aviation can offer. It is not all money.
I would gladly pay more money for a pilot who could do what is needed in this job safely and efficiently but for some time now that pilot does not exist. For example a few years back, before this stupid 1500 hour rule came in and put the stick in the bicycle wheel spokes, I could get a pilot with 4500 hours, 3000 command, 2500 multi engine turbine, and Alaska experience and we paid that guy a salary and flying hours at the top of the scale for Alaska. Now I might get someone with half that time and no multi engine turbine, spend a month or more training him, teaching him how to fly Alaska, then he stays three months and leaves for Atlas. I would be glad to pay pilots what they are worth, but only if the pilots would take a pay cut because some are not worth much at all. Of course I cannot do that but it sticks in my craw to pay less experienced pilots almost double what I would have paid for one who could actually do the job and would honour a commitment to stay and pay back the money and time spent training him.
You obviously see things in a very one-sided manner and believe the world owes you a living. You don't care about the industry; the mess being created that will deny the youngsters who will follow you similar opportunities because the companies that provided you and your mates with a great living and great flying opportunities are soon to go out of business. When we go, the levels above us in the aviation strata will not be far behind.
Your comment typifies that of the Millenials, and the liberals, who believe that the world was set up for their benefit and does not require a commitment.
The type of work we do is precisely what you describe; on call, no schedule, demanding flying and a need to be at the top of your game if you are going to fly safely. It is fun, satisfying and challenging. A good pilot would see that and not refuse to give it a go because it does not pay as much as he might think he is worth. I have flown practically everywhere and everything and consider what we do as the best flying job ever. You probably want to fly an Airbus (and face it; you don't really "fly" those), stay in good hotels, have a schedule and a great income, and wear a flash pilot uniform. I am sorry for you if so, because you have not really experienced what aviation can offer. It is not all money.
I would gladly pay more money for a pilot who could do what is needed in this job safely and efficiently but for some time now that pilot does not exist. For example a few years back, before this stupid 1500 hour rule came in and put the stick in the bicycle wheel spokes, I could get a pilot with 4500 hours, 3000 command, 2500 multi engine turbine, and Alaska experience and we paid that guy a salary and flying hours at the top of the scale for Alaska. Now I might get someone with half that time and no multi engine turbine, spend a month or more training him, teaching him how to fly Alaska, then he stays three months and leaves for Atlas. I would be glad to pay pilots what they are worth, but only if the pilots would take a pay cut because some are not worth much at all. Of course I cannot do that but it sticks in my craw to pay less experienced pilots almost double what I would have paid for one who could actually do the job and would honour a commitment to stay and pay back the money and time spent training him.
You obviously see things in a very one-sided manner and believe the world owes you a living. You don't care about the industry; the mess being created that will deny the youngsters who will follow you similar opportunities because the companies that provided you and your mates with a great living and great flying opportunities are soon to go out of business. When we go, the levels above us in the aviation strata will not be far behind.
we paid that guy a salary and flying hours at the top of the scale for Alaska.
The type of work we do is precisely what you describe; on call, no schedule, demanding flying and a need to be at the top of your game if you are going to fly safely. It is fun, satisfying and challenging. A good pilot would see that and not refuse to give it a go because it does not pay as much as he might think he is worth.
You really just can't understand why they're not lining up at your door, can you?
.
Last edited by A Squared; 27th Nov 2018 at 14:08.
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It's interesting that your response is composed of little more than personal attacks. Particularly interesting considering that a quick look at my profile and a modicum of situational awareness would have tipped you off just how badly off base your accusations are. The current A/C type in particular should have been food for thought, though you don't seem inclined toward such. (hmmmm, who flies those? ... there's that outfit 4 buildings down from my office, and, and .... I can't really think of any other company operating that type ...hmmmm) The type prior was the DC-6. Close to a decade on that one ... Are you beginning to suspect how absurd your accusations are about Airbuses and uniforms? You should be. So, spare me your hubris about not having "experienced what aviation can offer" I doubt there's many places in Alaska that you've flown that I haven't. Do you have something other than personal attacks based on erroneous assumptions? It seems not.
No, you absolutely did not.
Translation: We want to own you, 24/7/365, we're not going to pay you a competitive wage, but we expect you to be grateful for this.
You really just can't understand why they're not lining up at your door, can you?
.
No, you absolutely did not.
Translation: We want to own you, 24/7/365, we're not going to pay you a competitive wage, but we expect you to be grateful for this.
You really just can't understand why they're not lining up at your door, can you?
.
Because we are on demand, we have to fly to meet that requirement and we cannot operate with fixed schedules or fixed duty times without increasing the number of pilots we have by maybe 50 percent and because we do not have enough pilots in the first place, this is impossible.
I have to work in the real world and I can tell you that it is bad and getting worse.
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Because we are on demand, we have to fly to meet that requirement and we cannot operate with fixed schedules or fixed duty times without increasing the number of pilots we have by maybe 50 percent and because we do not have enough pilots in the first place, this is impossible.
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BTW I know of no company in Alaska that does what we do. Some do on demand in between scheduled flights, but that is not the same and I am sure you know that.
But never mind that; I am sure you have no knowledge of this subject because if you did you would understand the problem and not push the agenda that money cures every ill.
I get a lot of 200-300 hour pilots with Private certificates, but cannot take them because we don't fly two pilot and I have no way to train someone from scratch. I have reduced the experience requirement drastically but it has not helped; I am still short of manpower. I am working my guys hard, I know that, but have no choice. I would be better off having twice the number of pilots than I have and working them less, but again none of my pilots want that; they want the money. Or they want to build hours quickly to have enough to approach the Cargo/Airlines.
But the problem is not just whether I am a good manager or not, or pay enough, it is the fact that there is a severe shortage of pilots. Real pilots, those who can do the job without years of training. Even the majors have that problem and it will bite them in the butt soon when the accident rate goes up, especially when these relatively inexperienced pilots are put in the left seat and suddenly have to start making decisions.
We need tens of thousands of pilots on the bottom of the pyramid to support the hundreds at the top. It is unbalanced now and getting worse. When the 65 year old captains retire, which will be soon, they will be replaced by pilots who have not seen as much or done as much as they did when they were promoted to Captain and the next generation will have even less time in the job. I cannot see how the great safety record established by the present pilots can possibly be maintained and I forecast an uptick in incidents and accidents. Solely due to the 1500 hour rule which also puts this country at a severe disadvantage compared to the rest of the world. I doubt if any US pilot would have done anything better than the Lion Air guys, especially if they are just button pushers.
I am not the only person blowing this whistle, there are many who see the problem now. It worries me that anyone can support the 1500 hour rule with the damage it has done already and will continue to do so. Even some of my friends in the FAA agree with me. I read a recent advertisement for Inspectors to join the FAA as potential POIs and in the third or so page of the list of required qualifications it said that to be successful, an applicant had to have had no more than 2 pilot error accidents in the last 3 years. If that doesn't make your head spin, it should.
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You seem to not get it: there are no pilots out there. Even if I wanted to do as you say, there is no evidence that the pilots want it that way; they all want to make money and they won't make money sitting at home. There are no qualified pilots coming in my door or contacting me for a full time job. I am on several job boards with ads in the system and only once in a while do I get any pilots who live in Alaska or are willing to move here, much less have the quals I need.
This is probably a waste of my time here, but I can explain why you're not getting applications. You see, even though you don't publish salaries and the details of your employment conditions, you're fooling yourself if you think it's some sort of secret. You see, when a pilot sees an ad for pilots from "Boofhead's Premium Air Taxi Service" they either are already familiar with your terms and conditions, from having known pilots who have worked there, or by word of mouth, or they ask around, and the answer comes back: "Yeah, they don't pay much and they expect you to be available to the company with no time off. " So most pilots say, "umm, no thanks" and don't apply.
Calculating rest in retrospect is also illegal. The FAA's legal branch has been consistent in their replies to various requests for interpretations. For it to count as rest, it must be prospective ie planned ahead of time, and must be free of all duty. Doesn't matter if it's within 24 hrs, weekly, fortnightly, monthly or whatever. 'On call' is not free of duty. It's not necessarily 'duty', but it is not 'rest'.
Skywest are no longer hiring Australian pilots on the E3 visa. Supposedly the current pilots will be allowed to renew but who knows how long for. If I was still there I would be preparing a plan B.
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Interesting, but I’m not surprised. With the new pay rates at SkyWest, they hired 122 pilots in October.
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Calculating rest in retrospect is also illegal. The FAA's legal branch has been consistent in their replies to various requests for interpretations. For it to count as rest, it must be prospective ie planned ahead of time, and must be free of all duty. Doesn't matter if it's within 24 hrs, weekly, fortnightly, monthly or whatever. 'On call' is not free of duty. It's not necessarily 'duty', but it is not 'rest'.