US Regional Headhunting
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Latest version of Endeavor's Delta Guaranteed Interview program, dated today. I'd need an attorney to decipher this thing.
All this just for an interview:
http://www.endeavorair.com/content/d...025MAY2018.pdf
All this just for an interview:
http://www.endeavorair.com/content/d...025MAY2018.pdf
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I don't understand the appeal of the 'guaranteed interview' promise. It is completely non binding.
Like your parents telling you that if you clean your room they guarantee they'll consider taking you to Disney land .......
Like your parents telling you that if you clean your room they guarantee they'll consider taking you to Disney land .......
Thread Starter
Yes, it strikes me the same way. They may lay out a process defining the NUMBER of Endeavor people they interview but that doesn't mean they have to hire that many [ [url]https://tenor.com/view/charlie-brown-fail-lucy-sports-football-gif-4460715 ]. Delta's overall interview success rate since they began serious hiring in 2014 is ~74-78%. I'd be curious to know what the success rate is for the Endeavor pilots they've interviewed over that time.
I know they have had "Endeavor-only" interview days in the past where the success rate for that demographic is not 78%. There's a website, readysettakeoff.com, that tracks such specifics for its members. I've seen bits and pieces concerning the Endeavor-only days but I can't document the success rate reliably from what I've seen (which was NOT 78%).
Endeavor is wholly owned by DL with an increasing dependence on feed they provide to mainline. I'd be surprised to see DL shoot itself in the foot by hiring away too many of its feed pilots. But I make no claim of clairvoyance or inside info.
A true flow seems to be a much better carrot.
The rumor mill says there's to be an announcement coming about some kind of university pathway to DL. I have no idea what format it'll be but guess it will involve Endeavor as that's the only regional over which they have complete control. While DL had the ill-fated Endeavor-to-Delta program involving what seems to be a relative handful of pilots, I'd be surprised to see them implement a true flow for all a la AA.
It's a puzzle...and I can't solve it.
Last edited by bafanguy; 27th May 2018 at 11:18.
Thread Starter
As will I. They have a Manager of Pilot Outreach overseeing such things, IIUC. She has an impressive resume for such stuff.
It'll be news when it happens and show up somewhere.
Thread Starter
Speaking of Endeavor, Delta and their hiring practices. This:
Found the post below on another forum where DL’s “rigorous hiring standards” were being debated/discussed. Although not sure about 100% of what the guy said, I thought the reply quoted below, in response to why DL is like that, was particularly well reasoned. Although it’s a bit anecdotal as much internet stuff is, some of it jives with what was then the word on the street after the success rate of Endeavor pilots at DL interviews became news. [maybe an object lesson in there ?]
First, I’ve always objected to fuzzy, undefined terms, like “… the best pilots available…”. It’s meaningless and only know it’s their game, ergo, they make the rules…whatever THEY are. We can only infer its meaning by looking at results produced under the HR system in place. Results mixed enough in some cases to make one wonder.
Second, in paragraph #2, I don’t know that DL has no input into what the HR squad at their wholly-owned regional does related to hiring pilots. I’d like to know.
Third, in paragraph #3, the bolded part does match the word on the street. If…if…IF it’s true, whoever told them that needs to be publicly horse whipped along with anyone who’d actually have believed it. While I’d surmise it might be true for the initial wave of interviewees, the results would’ve spread like wild fire and likely altered the pre-interview behavior of those following. Would it not ?
At any rate, I’m just one of the Blind Men and the Elephant. Here’s what the guy said:
Why would Delta do this? Really?!?
1) Call it vanity, but they get to continue to tell themselves that they get to hire the best pilots available, choosing and poaching from ALL of the available candidates. Look at DL’s hiring stats. They have plenty of qualified pilots applying. Why would they lock themselves into anything but the most token of guarantees to bring in EDV pilots while military pilots are plentiful and cheap and the vast majority of regional 121 and all of the 135 world aren’t covered by a flow to another major?
2) Related to 1, Delta HR doesn’t have to stoop to accepting pilots from a “regional” (say that in a condescending tone) that were hired by said “regional HR.”
3) Related to 1, EDV pilot’s that interviewed early on with company sponsored interviews, their HR liaisons that coached them, accounted for themselves rather poorly with all the talk of “it’s a formality really, just a handshake and a chat. No problem.” Pilots that mailed in their effort, didn’t show for interviews, or acted entitled (or insufficiently humble when bowing to kiss Delta HR’s ring) hurt themselves and all other EDV pilots by giving Delta HR any evidence to say that they need to continue to stand as guardians against the unbathed masses of “regional” pilots.
Lastly, and this is purely personal anecdote. I did a short touch and go at EDV after retiring from the military and before moving on to mainline. I can tell you my experience of talking to pretty good EDV pilots that were passed over by Delta was that none of the passed over pilots seemed to grasp how important prepping for the interview really was, even after getting turned down with a 6 month re-interview invitation. By contrast, my military bubbas encouraging me to come to mainline were adamant about test and interview prep as a friendly prerequisite to the internal recommendation so that I’d be successful. That approach is as much a cultural heritage from a military career (never start a fight or engagement that you don’t already know the outcome, either because you know you’re going to win or your sacrifice is necessary), but I prepped and studied my butt off. The result was that after the adrenaline of the two day process was over, it was easy to say that it was actually pretty low threat. I saw mil friends one day ahead of me to interview and one day behind me, and our interview groups were >75% military, all whom were hired, and all felt like they were over-prepared. The others, as a general rule, had not spent as much time, money, or effort on prep, felt like the testing was harder than they expected, that the got beat up more in the HR portion, and were overall about 50/50 on CJO vice invitation for 6 month return or a total “thank you for your time.” Let me be clear that in my short interaction with these others, or what was related by friends, the only difference I could see was how much effort had gone into prep versus mil guys.
My opinion, imperfect and ignorant as it is, is that until every SSP or DGI participant shows up to interview 100% prepared (test prep, HR prep, and with a convincing balance of humble and confidence), Delta HR will always want to protect their turf by holding up the example of a few clowns that accounted poorly for themselves and hurt the EDV name in the process.
Found the post below on another forum where DL’s “rigorous hiring standards” were being debated/discussed. Although not sure about 100% of what the guy said, I thought the reply quoted below, in response to why DL is like that, was particularly well reasoned. Although it’s a bit anecdotal as much internet stuff is, some of it jives with what was then the word on the street after the success rate of Endeavor pilots at DL interviews became news. [maybe an object lesson in there ?]
First, I’ve always objected to fuzzy, undefined terms, like “… the best pilots available…”. It’s meaningless and only know it’s their game, ergo, they make the rules…whatever THEY are. We can only infer its meaning by looking at results produced under the HR system in place. Results mixed enough in some cases to make one wonder.
Second, in paragraph #2, I don’t know that DL has no input into what the HR squad at their wholly-owned regional does related to hiring pilots. I’d like to know.
Third, in paragraph #3, the bolded part does match the word on the street. If…if…IF it’s true, whoever told them that needs to be publicly horse whipped along with anyone who’d actually have believed it. While I’d surmise it might be true for the initial wave of interviewees, the results would’ve spread like wild fire and likely altered the pre-interview behavior of those following. Would it not ?
At any rate, I’m just one of the Blind Men and the Elephant. Here’s what the guy said:
Why would Delta do this? Really?!?
1) Call it vanity, but they get to continue to tell themselves that they get to hire the best pilots available, choosing and poaching from ALL of the available candidates. Look at DL’s hiring stats. They have plenty of qualified pilots applying. Why would they lock themselves into anything but the most token of guarantees to bring in EDV pilots while military pilots are plentiful and cheap and the vast majority of regional 121 and all of the 135 world aren’t covered by a flow to another major?
2) Related to 1, Delta HR doesn’t have to stoop to accepting pilots from a “regional” (say that in a condescending tone) that were hired by said “regional HR.”
3) Related to 1, EDV pilot’s that interviewed early on with company sponsored interviews, their HR liaisons that coached them, accounted for themselves rather poorly with all the talk of “it’s a formality really, just a handshake and a chat. No problem.” Pilots that mailed in their effort, didn’t show for interviews, or acted entitled (or insufficiently humble when bowing to kiss Delta HR’s ring) hurt themselves and all other EDV pilots by giving Delta HR any evidence to say that they need to continue to stand as guardians against the unbathed masses of “regional” pilots.
Lastly, and this is purely personal anecdote. I did a short touch and go at EDV after retiring from the military and before moving on to mainline. I can tell you my experience of talking to pretty good EDV pilots that were passed over by Delta was that none of the passed over pilots seemed to grasp how important prepping for the interview really was, even after getting turned down with a 6 month re-interview invitation. By contrast, my military bubbas encouraging me to come to mainline were adamant about test and interview prep as a friendly prerequisite to the internal recommendation so that I’d be successful. That approach is as much a cultural heritage from a military career (never start a fight or engagement that you don’t already know the outcome, either because you know you’re going to win or your sacrifice is necessary), but I prepped and studied my butt off. The result was that after the adrenaline of the two day process was over, it was easy to say that it was actually pretty low threat. I saw mil friends one day ahead of me to interview and one day behind me, and our interview groups were >75% military, all whom were hired, and all felt like they were over-prepared. The others, as a general rule, had not spent as much time, money, or effort on prep, felt like the testing was harder than they expected, that the got beat up more in the HR portion, and were overall about 50/50 on CJO vice invitation for 6 month return or a total “thank you for your time.” Let me be clear that in my short interaction with these others, or what was related by friends, the only difference I could see was how much effort had gone into prep versus mil guys.
My opinion, imperfect and ignorant as it is, is that until every SSP or DGI participant shows up to interview 100% prepared (test prep, HR prep, and with a convincing balance of humble and confidence), Delta HR will always want to protect their turf by holding up the example of a few clowns that accounted poorly for themselves and hurt the EDV name in the process.
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Thread Starter
bpi,
To my knowledge, all the above is TOP SECRET stuff; many will speculate but few if any will actually know. They've admitted that the airlinesapps.com document you submit had darned well better be perfect in punctuation, capitalization, grammar and consistent use of terminology with no gaps in things like employment and/or residency history throughout...lest you be deemed too slovenly and half-baked to be worthy. Beyond that, I've not heard comments from unimpeachable sources as to what factors or their weight that gets one to Hapeville.
For example, turbine PIC was once said to be a deal breaker...then not so much. The volunteering was critical...I know people interviewed without it. We all remain Blind Men and the Elephant.
You'll learn America's nuclear launch codes before you learn the application scoring criteria that gets one a DL interview.
However, apps do get scored and DL admits as much in the instructions for internal recommendations on their company website.
Thread Starter
So, Republic Airlines is now in cahoots with a flight school for an ab initio of sorts ? The standard path: get tickets, instruct, go to affiliated regional ?
Not sure if Republic bought the school or just has a deal with them:
"A position as a pilot with Republic Airline will be available for all our graduates."
https://flywithlift.com/benefits/?type=5
https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/new...-230910-1.html
“The 50 aircraft order represents the largest order for piston training aircraft by any U.S. based airline in history. Initial deliveries for the new fleet of Diamond Aircraft will begin in 2018, with the majority of deliveries in 2019.”
http://aviationtribune.com/training/...da42-vi-fleet/
Not sure if Republic bought the school or just has a deal with them:
"A position as a pilot with Republic Airline will be available for all our graduates."
https://flywithlift.com/benefits/?type=5
https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/new...-230910-1.html
“The 50 aircraft order represents the largest order for piston training aircraft by any U.S. based airline in history. Initial deliveries for the new fleet of Diamond Aircraft will begin in 2018, with the majority of deliveries in 2019.”
http://aviationtribune.com/training/...da42-vi-fleet/
Last edited by bafanguy; 5th Jun 2018 at 09:13. Reason: Add Avweb
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On a big scale the idea of training to be a cpl, then CFI then you staying on as a CFI at the school comes across as a pyramyd scheme.
How do the numbers stack up? Over 1500h how many cpls would a CFI train who then turn into cfis themselves who in turn train X amount of cpls aiming to be cfis?
Just saying the pilot shortage problem will rear its head again but in a different form. That form will be an oversupply of cfis in the system with low or no students.
How do the numbers stack up? Over 1500h how many cpls would a CFI train who then turn into cfis themselves who in turn train X amount of cpls aiming to be cfis?
Just saying the pilot shortage problem will rear its head again but in a different form. That form will be an oversupply of cfis in the system with low or no students.
Thread Starter
On a big scale the idea of training to be a cpl, then CFI then you staying on as a CFI at the school comes across as a pyramyd scheme.
Just saying the pilot shortage problem will rear its head again but in a different form. That form will be an oversupply of cfis in the system with low or no students.
Just saying the pilot shortage problem will rear its head again but in a different form. That form will be an oversupply of cfis in the system with low or no students.
As for CFI supply vs student numbers, the reverse seems to be the case in that schools are having a hard time keeping CFI because the regionals are snapping them up so fast. When regionals stop that, the problem of CFI oversupply might exist or perhaps self correct.
It's a puzzle...
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We simply cut out that middle portion of making it into an airliner. The airlines train most pilots for themselves and boooom - 3 years later you're sitting in the right hand seat. Of course in the US that's a FAA-regulatory issue now with the high hour mins.
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PA,
Yes, it strikes me the same way. They may lay out a process defining the NUMBER of Endeavor people they interview but that doesn't mean they have to hire that many [ [url]https://tenor.com/view/charlie-brown-fail-lucy-sports-football-gif-4460715 ]. Delta's overall interview success rate since they began serious hiring in 2014 is ~74-78%. I'd be curious to know what the success rate is for the Endeavor pilots they've interviewed over that time.
I know they have had "Endeavor-only" interview days in the past where the success rate for that demographic is not 78%. There's a website, readysettakeoff.com, that tracks such specifics for its members. I've seen bits and pieces concerning the Endeavor-only days but I can't document the success rate reliably from what I've seen (which was NOT 78%).
Endeavor is wholly owned by DL with an increasing dependence on feed they provide to mainline. I'd be surprised to see DL shoot itself in the foot by hiring away too many of its feed pilots. But I make no claim of clairvoyance or inside info.
Yes, it strikes me the same way. They may lay out a process defining the NUMBER of Endeavor people they interview but that doesn't mean they have to hire that many [ [url]https://tenor.com/view/charlie-brown-fail-lucy-sports-football-gif-4460715 ]. Delta's overall interview success rate since they began serious hiring in 2014 is ~74-78%. I'd be curious to know what the success rate is for the Endeavor pilots they've interviewed over that time.
I know they have had "Endeavor-only" interview days in the past where the success rate for that demographic is not 78%. There's a website, readysettakeoff.com, that tracks such specifics for its members. I've seen bits and pieces concerning the Endeavor-only days but I can't document the success rate reliably from what I've seen (which was NOT 78%).
Endeavor is wholly owned by DL with an increasing dependence on feed they provide to mainline. I'd be surprised to see DL shoot itself in the foot by hiring away too many of its feed pilots. But I make no claim of clairvoyance or inside info.
Last edited by flyboyike; 1st Jun 2018 at 20:15.
Thread Starter
It's frustrating and exasperating. Many good people will get passed over because the subjectivity of the panel interview in particular is so high.
I also know someone who was told he missed it "by one point". Apparently, the day's interview accumulates a point total with a pass/fail grade (no idea what gets what points). Seems to me the panel interview is a stumbling point where, at some level, subjectivity reigns supreme.
But, tell your friend they apparently give more than two interviews. My wife flew a trip with a DL captain whose son had just been hired...after his THIRD interview. Not hearsay...fact. So perhaps all isn't lost. But it sure costs a guy a lot of seniority numbers by the time he gets three interviews; at least he's in the club and that's what ultimately counts.
And the guy they hired on the third attempt is exactly the same guy they turned down twice before...not one iota of difference...couldn't be.
I couldn't get a job sweeping out the hangar today.
Oh well...it's a puzzle.
Last edited by bafanguy; 1st Jun 2018 at 19:53.
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ike,
It's frustrating and exasperating. Many good people will get passed over because the subjectivity of the panel interview in particular is so high.
I also know someone who was told he missed it "by one point". Apparently, the day's interview accumulates a point total with a pass/fail grade (no idea what gets what points). Seems to me the panel interview is a stumbling point where, at some level, subjectivity reigns supreme.
But, tell your friend they apparently give more than two interviews. My wife flew a trip with a DL captain whose son had just been hired...after his THIRD interview. Not hearsay...fact. So perhaps all isn't lost. But it sure costs a guy a lot of seniority numbers by the time he gets three interviews; at least he's in the club and that's what ultimately counts.
And the guy they hired on the third attempt is exactly the same guy they turned down twice before...not one iota of difference...couldn't be.
I couldn't get a job sweeping out the hangar today.
Oh well...it's a puzzle.
It's frustrating and exasperating. Many good people will get passed over because the subjectivity of the panel interview in particular is so high.
I also know someone who was told he missed it "by one point". Apparently, the day's interview accumulates a point total with a pass/fail grade (no idea what gets what points). Seems to me the panel interview is a stumbling point where, at some level, subjectivity reigns supreme.
But, tell your friend they apparently give more than two interviews. My wife flew a trip with a DL captain whose son had just been hired...after his THIRD interview. Not hearsay...fact. So perhaps all isn't lost. But it sure costs a guy a lot of seniority numbers by the time he gets three interviews; at least he's in the club and that's what ultimately counts.
And the guy they hired on the third attempt is exactly the same guy they turned down twice before...not one iota of difference...couldn't be.
I couldn't get a job sweeping out the hangar today.
Oh well...it's a puzzle.
Thread Starter
Thread Starter
Reincarnation of Midwest Express with CRJs ? Not much detail given:
Midwest Express
I suppose some headhunting would result from such a rebirth.
Here's a bit of history. Rebirth seems like a real long shot...gutsy move... but I wish them well:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/money/...nes/552399001/
Midwest Express
I suppose some headhunting would result from such a rebirth.
Here's a bit of history. Rebirth seems like a real long shot...gutsy move... but I wish them well:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/money/...nes/552399001/
The latest efforts:
https://www.biztimes.com/2018/indust...king-progress/
Thread Starter
The new Republic ab initio program evolves a little further by an alliance with a local university av program. This may be the new normal ? Lots & lots of university av programs around:
“…Republic and Vincennes University are announcing the formation of a long-term training partnership. Under the partnership, beginning in 2019, Vincennes University (VU) flight students will complete their flight training at LIFT Academy, with access to the most technologically advanced training environment and the opportunity to become part of the Republic Airline career pathway program. “
Republic Airways Launches Aviation Training Academy In Indianapolis | Aero-News Network
“…Republic and Vincennes University are announcing the formation of a long-term training partnership. Under the partnership, beginning in 2019, Vincennes University (VU) flight students will complete their flight training at LIFT Academy, with access to the most technologically advanced training environment and the opportunity to become part of the Republic Airline career pathway program. “
Republic Airways Launches Aviation Training Academy In Indianapolis | Aero-News Network
Thread Starter
Skywest adds flight school for rotor transition pilots:
"Military Rotor pilots who choose to complete their fixed wing training at AMS can enjoy up to $27,500 in tuition reimbursement and bonuses from SkyWest. The Rotor Transition Program is designed to provide a clear pathway for military helicopter pilots to launch their career as an airline pilot with SkyWest."
AMS Partners With SkyWest Airlines For Tuition Reimbursement | Aero-News Network
"Military Rotor pilots who choose to complete their fixed wing training at AMS can enjoy up to $27,500 in tuition reimbursement and bonuses from SkyWest. The Rotor Transition Program is designed to provide a clear pathway for military helicopter pilots to launch their career as an airline pilot with SkyWest."
AMS Partners With SkyWest Airlines For Tuition Reimbursement | Aero-News Network
Thread Starter
Yet another example of the university-regional style pipeline involving a smaller school. This is becoming a pattern:
Airlines hire K-State graduates to reverse pilot shortage | The Kansas City Star
Airlines hire K-State graduates to reverse pilot shortage | The Kansas City Star
Thread Starter
Latest offering from GoJet Airlines. I'm not clear on what constitutes an "International air carrier". If they're interested in people who can quickly upgrade because they have 1,000 hours Part 121 time, perhaps it means a US carrier that flies international routes ?
“The new bonus package includes a $51,000 bonus for new hire First Officers, as well as a $5,000 Air Carrier Experience Match for current and qualified pilots from any scheduled US or international air carrier.”
https://worldairlinenews.com/2018/06...bonus-package/
“The new bonus package includes a $51,000 bonus for new hire First Officers, as well as a $5,000 Air Carrier Experience Match for current and qualified pilots from any scheduled US or international air carrier.”
https://worldairlinenews.com/2018/06...bonus-package/