Allegiant fires pilot after ordering an emergency evacuation
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Thank you, gentlemen, for your learned exposition of the law - which seems to thrive on a United States of Confusion! I especially relish the disclosure of the relevant railroad legal angles that can be used to waft smoke over the aviation procedures....
Going back briefly to the possibility of the station fire crew asking the pilot to stand by evacuating the aircraft, notwithstanding the possibility of smoke in the cabin, this took place, did it not, at St. Petersburg/Clearwater in Florida?
A sleepy place when I was there....how often is SP/C fire service called into a genuine emergency?
A few years back, at Kerry International Airport, Eire, I was informed by the tower that my aircraft was number one to land, and "Air Lingus, you are number two behind the Supercub!"....
So of course I kept pedalling like mad, and after landing safely and rolling out at a walking pace, was caught by a crosswind gust, and ended tail in the air in a bog, while Air Lingus had to go around, and around....
The Airport Fire Service was so excited to AT LAST have a genuine emergency to deal with, after all those years and years of practice, they came dashing up and intended to squirt foam all over my pride and joy.
"Don'T " I shouted, "Its not burning! Just help me to put it right side up and we'll push it to the apron". The fire service guys were so hyped they were actually trembling, but magnificently refrained from squirting their foam.
Eventually Air Lingus was able to land, and no harm done to anyone. And in fact there was no damage to my aircraft, as it was a very slow arrival into a very soft bog!
How much experience do smaller airports actually have for their firecrew to make sensible decisions when they are actually presented with an emergency? And it is even less likely that major airport firecrew will have any actual experience of life threatening emergencies.
Certainly not enough to be able to judge when to countermand a pilot's decision to evacuate. The rule should be well published. They can only inform, not command.
Going back briefly to the possibility of the station fire crew asking the pilot to stand by evacuating the aircraft, notwithstanding the possibility of smoke in the cabin, this took place, did it not, at St. Petersburg/Clearwater in Florida?
A sleepy place when I was there....how often is SP/C fire service called into a genuine emergency?
A few years back, at Kerry International Airport, Eire, I was informed by the tower that my aircraft was number one to land, and "Air Lingus, you are number two behind the Supercub!"....
So of course I kept pedalling like mad, and after landing safely and rolling out at a walking pace, was caught by a crosswind gust, and ended tail in the air in a bog, while Air Lingus had to go around, and around....
The Airport Fire Service was so excited to AT LAST have a genuine emergency to deal with, after all those years and years of practice, they came dashing up and intended to squirt foam all over my pride and joy.
"Don'T " I shouted, "Its not burning! Just help me to put it right side up and we'll push it to the apron". The fire service guys were so hyped they were actually trembling, but magnificently refrained from squirting their foam.
Eventually Air Lingus was able to land, and no harm done to anyone. And in fact there was no damage to my aircraft, as it was a very slow arrival into a very soft bog!
How much experience do smaller airports actually have for their firecrew to make sensible decisions when they are actually presented with an emergency? And it is even less likely that major airport firecrew will have any actual experience of life threatening emergencies.
Certainly not enough to be able to judge when to countermand a pilot's decision to evacuate. The rule should be well published. They can only inform, not command.
Last edited by mary meagher; 23rd Nov 2015 at 14:54.
Rotate on this!
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The fire service guys were so hyped they were actually trembling, but magnificently refrained from squirting their foam
If you had a choice of
a) 99% chance of evacuating with a couple of broken arms and legs (and no real fire), or:
b) 1% chance of 20-30 people burning to death because of a delayed evacuation
a) 99% chance of evacuating with a couple of broken arms and legs (and no real fire), or:
b) 1% chance of 20-30 people burning to death because of a delayed evacuation
The real question in considering evacuation is less the state of the fire 90 seconds from now than the survivability of the cabin atmosphere 90 seconds from now.
Yes, completely agree RBF.
The charred remains may be a secondary outcome.
The PIC really needs to think which of those two scenarios they'd rather be justifying at an inquest.
The charred remains may be a secondary outcome.
The PIC really needs to think which of those two scenarios they'd rather be justifying at an inquest.
It's the combustion byproducts (CO, HCL...) that can incapacitate in seconds. Demise from inhaling toxic fumes generally precedes combustion.
The real question in considering evacuation is less the state of the fire 90 seconds from now than the survivability of the cabin atmosphere 90 seconds from now.
The real question in considering evacuation is less the state of the fire 90 seconds from now than the survivability of the cabin atmosphere 90 seconds from now.
Sounds like an outfit to avoid
Not if you're an investor
As the old saying goes, if you think flight safety is expensive, try having an accident!
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 26th Nov 2015 at 22:05. Reason: Sp
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Allegiant pilots have a union and are under the Railway Labor act..And in the RRLA there is a arbitration process that over rides the court system.. Its sad but the courts will rule that the pilot in this case must follow the RRLA and go thru the process.. Arbitrate it... Federal Courts have done this many times before..
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Not quite Magnum, P.I., but....
@CAPTDOUG & wanabee777
Case from Hawaii: Hawaiian Airlines v. Norris, 1994 (findlaw link: HAWAIIAN AIRLINES, INC. v. NORRIS | FindLaw)
I believe that the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Norris, that the RLA does not necessarily require an airline pilot, who claims he or she was discharged from employment because they had been a "whistleblower," to proceed only through the RLA's arbitration dispute resolution system, is still "good law." Meaning unlike Magnum whose run ended (except in syndication), the ruling in Norris, more than 20 years later, is still the law in the U.S.
(If there is a later case, which I have missed, changing the law, after Norris, well, this legal advice is worth what you have paid for it!)
Case from Hawaii: Hawaiian Airlines v. Norris, 1994 (findlaw link: HAWAIIAN AIRLINES, INC. v. NORRIS | FindLaw)
I believe that the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Norris, that the RLA does not necessarily require an airline pilot, who claims he or she was discharged from employment because they had been a "whistleblower," to proceed only through the RLA's arbitration dispute resolution system, is still "good law." Meaning unlike Magnum whose run ended (except in syndication), the ruling in Norris, more than 20 years later, is still the law in the U.S.
(If there is a later case, which I have missed, changing the law, after Norris, well, this legal advice is worth what you have paid for it!)
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The RLA situation with Allegiant is a bit more complicated since (I believe) there is no existing CBA between the pilots and Allegiant, so the Captain cannot rely on some rights customarily written into CBAs.
Not being a labor expert I'm not even sure what the minor dispute process is without a CBA. Anyone know? This may have been an additional factor of why the suit was filed in Nevada under state law instead of in Federal court under the RLA.
Not being a labor expert I'm not even sure what the minor dispute process is without a CBA. Anyone know? This may have been an additional factor of why the suit was filed in Nevada under state law instead of in Federal court under the RLA.
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CAPTDOUG & wanabee777
Case from Hawaii: Hawaiian Airlines v. Norris, 1994 (findlaw link: HAWAIIAN AIRLINES, INC. v. NORRIS | FindLaw)
I believe that the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Norris, that the RLA does not necessarily require an airline pilot, who claims he or she was discharged from employment because they had been a "whistleblower," to proceed only through the RLA's arbitration dispute resolution system, is still "good law." Meaning unlike Magnum whose run ended (except in syndication), the ruling in Norris, more than 20 years later, is still the law in the U.S.
(If there is a later case, which I have missed, changing the law, after Norris, well, this legal advice is worth what you have paid for it!
Your not talking apples and apples.. Its called Air21 and it is a whistle blower. BUT it has to happen prior to a pilot being punished not after if the legal system is to have any power.
Also let it be known that RLA covers all airline pilots regardless if a Union is on property..As in the case of the Allegiant Captain I have heard that their union is giving him the cold shoulder.. So much for paying his union dues....
Case from Hawaii: Hawaiian Airlines v. Norris, 1994 (findlaw link: HAWAIIAN AIRLINES, INC. v. NORRIS | FindLaw)
I believe that the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Norris, that the RLA does not necessarily require an airline pilot, who claims he or she was discharged from employment because they had been a "whistleblower," to proceed only through the RLA's arbitration dispute resolution system, is still "good law." Meaning unlike Magnum whose run ended (except in syndication), the ruling in Norris, more than 20 years later, is still the law in the U.S.
(If there is a later case, which I have missed, changing the law, after Norris, well, this legal advice is worth what you have paid for it!
Your not talking apples and apples.. Its called Air21 and it is a whistle blower. BUT it has to happen prior to a pilot being punished not after if the legal system is to have any power.
Also let it be known that RLA covers all airline pilots regardless if a Union is on property..As in the case of the Allegiant Captain I have heard that their union is giving him the cold shoulder.. So much for paying his union dues....
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Nevertheless, removal implies there have been monetary discussions between the Captain and Allegiant (e.g., before the case was filed). Diversity requires the damages more than $75,000 -- a very low bar in this case -- but as a matter of routine State filings only specify "more than $10,000" which by itself is not sufficient for removal.
Interestingly (for you legal types) Allegiant's motion to remove was not based on diversity, but solely on the argument that the U.S. district court has original jurisdiction. This could backfire on Allegiant.
Also as predicted, Allegiant filed a Motion to Dismiss largely based on arguments stated earlier in this thread including:
- Only the FAA has the right to seek remedy under FARs
- Nevada State laws are preempted by Federal laws
- The Captain forfeited his Federal remedy by not pursuing an AIR21 WPP complaint
Among others, Allegiant argues that Nevada does not have a public policy prohibiting termination of at-will employment based on compliance or non-compliance with FARs.
Allegiant also made some arguments based on the Airline Deregulation Act, which was not very convincing.
Unfortunately for us spectators, there have been no further info from on what actually happened that fateful day.
At this point, the arguments from both sides have lots of holes in them.
The Captain's lawyers want the case to be remanded back to Nevada state court and/or decided under Nevada labor laws. Allegiant's lawyers want the case dismissed, or failing that, for the case stay in the U.S. district court and be decided under preempting Federal laws.
And so the saga continues...
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Don't know if it's related but looks like one of the senior Allegiant managers just jumped ship (or walked the plank 
):
Allegiant Air COO abruptly quits | Las Vegas Review-Journal
):
January 15, 2016 - 5:33pm
Allegiant Air COO abruptly quits
By Richard N. Velotta
Las Vegas Review-Journal
Steve Harfst, Allegiant Air's chief operating officer since December 2014, abruptly resigned Friday.
The company offered no details of Harfst's departure beyond a four-paragraph statement that noted the resignation was effective immediately.
"We thank Steve for his contributions to Allegiant," Maurice Gallagher, chairman and CEO of Allegiant Travel Co., said in the statement announcing the departure. "We look forward to continuing his efforts to strengthen our operation."
Prior to joining Allegiant, Harfst was the chief operating officer at IndiGo Airlines based in New Delhi, India.
The Allegiant statement said the company would "use this leadership change as an opportunity to refocus on operational needs and areas for improvement. Allegiant is committed to operational excellence and looks forward to continued progress in this area."
Harfst had been the point man in Allegiant's efforts to negotiate a contract with Teamsters Local 1224, the company's pilot union.
Allegiant Air COO abruptly quits
By Richard N. Velotta
Las Vegas Review-Journal
Steve Harfst, Allegiant Air's chief operating officer since December 2014, abruptly resigned Friday.
The company offered no details of Harfst's departure beyond a four-paragraph statement that noted the resignation was effective immediately.
"We thank Steve for his contributions to Allegiant," Maurice Gallagher, chairman and CEO of Allegiant Travel Co., said in the statement announcing the departure. "We look forward to continuing his efforts to strengthen our operation."
Prior to joining Allegiant, Harfst was the chief operating officer at IndiGo Airlines based in New Delhi, India.
The Allegiant statement said the company would "use this leadership change as an opportunity to refocus on operational needs and areas for improvement. Allegiant is committed to operational excellence and looks forward to continued progress in this area."
Harfst had been the point man in Allegiant's efforts to negotiate a contract with Teamsters Local 1224, the company's pilot union.
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"Maybe the lawyers are reading this thread?" - one would certainly hope that legal counsel worthy of retention in this serious matter would have arrived at appropriate arguments and strategies outside of the forum!
pk, do you happen to know when the Plaintiff's response to the Defendant's Motion to Dismiss is due to be filed in the USDC?
And thanks for posting the litigation update, btw . . .
pk, do you happen to know when the Plaintiff's response to the Defendant's Motion to Dismiss is due to be filed in the USDC?
And thanks for posting the litigation update, btw . . .
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Indeed, Allegiant is represented by capable counsels from Jackson Lewis P.C.
On the Motion to Dismiss, both its Response and the Reply to Response have now been filed. I believe next up is setting the discovery schedule.
In the docket there is an Early Neutral Evaluation (ENE) session set for February 25, 9am.
The case is 2:15-cv-02306, Nevada District Court, if anyone wants to follow.
On the Motion to Dismiss, both its Response and the Reply to Response have now been filed. I believe next up is setting the discovery schedule.
In the docket there is an Early Neutral Evaluation (ENE) session set for February 25, 9am.
The case is 2:15-cv-02306, Nevada District Court, if anyone wants to follow.
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Allegiant pilots need to impose a "work to rule" action, otherwise the management will continue to pick them off one by one whenever any pilot makes a controversial decision...their management needs to learn the difference between errors, and willful violations
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Interestingly (for you legal types) Allegiant's motion to remove was not based on diversity, but solely on the argument that the U.S. district court has original jurisdiction. This could backfire on Allegiant.
Allegiant has refiled its "Motion to Dismiss" at the Nevada state court. Due to the usual court system backlog, the next set of activities is likely not until the end of August. The case is long from over and Allegiant will be happy to let it drag out.
Incidentally the presiding state judge is up for re-election in November...
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Safety Culture
Do I read this correctly ??
Greg Baden, Allegiant's vice president of operations, and Michael Wuerger, director of flight safety, government affairs and quality assurance, were flying Allegiant's Flight 426 from McCarran International Airport to the Fargo, N.D., Hector International Airport on July 23.
Director of Flight Safety and Quality Assurance are the same person!!!!
Time to go for a Safety Management Course and read page 1.
Greg Baden, Allegiant's vice president of operations, and Michael Wuerger, director of flight safety, government affairs and quality assurance, were flying Allegiant's Flight 426 from McCarran International Airport to the Fargo, N.D., Hector International Airport on July 23.
Director of Flight Safety and Quality Assurance are the same person!!!!
Time to go for a Safety Management Course and read page 1.