idaho crash, 5 aboard
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idaho crash, 5 aboard
surprised this hasn't been mentioned...owner operated Bonanaz (A36?) missing in Idaho wilderness. ELT heard faintly...still not found after 72 hours
I found this news story during a web search. I presume this is the one you refer to.
If so, that's some pretty harsh country. The Survivor Man would need all his skills. But miracles do happen from time to time...
If so, that's some pretty harsh country. The Survivor Man would need all his skills. But miracles do happen from time to time...
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still no word as of Dec 9.
wondering if after radar contact was lost if plane went on gliding in a controlled way, and this is the way to guess at location
OR
if plane went into a stall/spin and went straight down. at night, semi or fully instrument environment and loss of engine, some might pull up inadvertently into a stall/spin
seen nothing in media
wondering if after radar contact was lost if plane went on gliding in a controlled way, and this is the way to guess at location
OR
if plane went into a stall/spin and went straight down. at night, semi or fully instrument environment and loss of engine, some might pull up inadvertently into a stall/spin
seen nothing in media
I haven't been able to find anything on the missing plane either. I checked the NTSB monthly list and exactly nada there too. Maybe when the preliminary comes out, they'll at least list a last known position and course. Though it's been stated in the news stories that the pilot reported trouble and asked for vectors to Johnson Creek, that's about all.
I've flow piston airplanes through that area a few times and done a bit of hiking near there as well. Beautiful and desolate. But never during the winter months. This is one of those areas where a crashed airplane could go unnoticed for a long time, especially after a snow. I hope this doesn't turn out to be one of those...
westhawk
I've flow piston airplanes through that area a few times and done a bit of hiking near there as well. Beautiful and desolate. But never during the winter months. This is one of those areas where a crashed airplane could go unnoticed for a long time, especially after a snow. I hope this doesn't turn out to be one of those...
westhawk
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just read somethiing in the salt lake city newspaper...pretty much given up on organized search.
some rich guy has given his private copter for a search and some family members are searching.
sad
just read somethiing in the salt lake city newspaper...pretty much given up on organized search.
some rich guy has given his private copter for a search and some family members are searching.
sad
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If an ELT is still transmitting the helicopter will find the crash site. I have located them myself with a VHF portable radio a couple of times. One time after a one week search for an experimental plane that crashed coming across the desert going to ONT with our old B737's we could control the squelch so heard a very weak ELT signal and told ATC where it peaked abeam a mountain just north of ONT and they found the wreckage the next day. They said a Russian satelitte found it the next day but I don't think so. Another time at Chino airport I used the portable radio to slightly off tune the ELT freq and when it peaked, went 90 degrees to the peak and found the plane with the ELT transmitting so told the FAA where the ELT was. The helicopter will have a directional finder so it should be easy to find.
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Bubbers, I'm not a pilot but I know radio. Finding the source of a VHF or UHF signal in mountainous terrain without at least a tuned directional antenna can be a tricky thing, as signals this high in frequency will reflect off mountain slopes and any relatively flat surface. If that surface is located and shaped correctly it may even provide a stronger received signal than the original source should both be visible to the receiving antenna, giving you a false bearing. Which brings me to another point- if they were deep in a valley that had peaks in every direction around them, you might have to be almost directly on top of them to receive anything as terrain also absorbs and weakens any signal which it doesn't reflect- something lost and something possibly gained together.
Then there is also the searching aircraft and it's antennae to consider. An old friend who Captained the local CAP in the mountains here told me how he made some rookies turn green as he banked the plane heavily to each side in turn so as to shield the bi-directional DF loop on top with the metal skin of the airframe so he'd know whether to head left or right. He was another Ham operator like me so he understood what he was up to even though it wasn't in the CAP manual. A regular omnidirectional antenna on top of any metal-clad A/C would be shielded similarly, but without any assurance of direction otherwise, and possibly with some signal still reflected by the tail empennage in back lessening this effect. Most S&R units now use a rapidly switched doppler array that puts you on the strongest-signal quadrant in well under a second once it has the signal- amazing how far we've come in 20 years time. But you have to capture the signal no matter the technique and equipment used, and that can be the biggest problem
ELT's are low-power transmitters, so anything that degrades the signal will have a very marked effect on the range it can be detected at. If it's antenna got pushed underground just below the surface or equally covered with dirt, half of it's signal strength could be lost- lots more if it were covered with metal from the hull as well. Then there's signal orientation loss. Radio waves propagate in a planar fashion, and the further you are away from parallel antenna polarization on both ends the higher this loss. IIRC, aircraft use vertical polarization. This loss can be as much as 20dB, which reduces signal strength by about a factor of 8. Double that with a buried ELT and not now have as little as 6mW effective transmitting power. Foliage reduces signals in this frequency range too, so if among firs or pines there could be maybe another 25% of the signal lost. And there could be weak batteries when activated and time reducing that. There is more RF power available from a spark made by shorting a regular 9V transistor battery with a foot-long wire than this.
It is indeed sometimes like looking for a needle in a haystack, but this 'needle' runs on batteries which will make it disappear soon when they're spent. I hate to say it, but if they haven't located the signal by now it's not likely to happen.
Then there is also the searching aircraft and it's antennae to consider. An old friend who Captained the local CAP in the mountains here told me how he made some rookies turn green as he banked the plane heavily to each side in turn so as to shield the bi-directional DF loop on top with the metal skin of the airframe so he'd know whether to head left or right. He was another Ham operator like me so he understood what he was up to even though it wasn't in the CAP manual. A regular omnidirectional antenna on top of any metal-clad A/C would be shielded similarly, but without any assurance of direction otherwise, and possibly with some signal still reflected by the tail empennage in back lessening this effect. Most S&R units now use a rapidly switched doppler array that puts you on the strongest-signal quadrant in well under a second once it has the signal- amazing how far we've come in 20 years time. But you have to capture the signal no matter the technique and equipment used, and that can be the biggest problem
ELT's are low-power transmitters, so anything that degrades the signal will have a very marked effect on the range it can be detected at. If it's antenna got pushed underground just below the surface or equally covered with dirt, half of it's signal strength could be lost- lots more if it were covered with metal from the hull as well. Then there's signal orientation loss. Radio waves propagate in a planar fashion, and the further you are away from parallel antenna polarization on both ends the higher this loss. IIRC, aircraft use vertical polarization. This loss can be as much as 20dB, which reduces signal strength by about a factor of 8. Double that with a buried ELT and not now have as little as 6mW effective transmitting power. Foliage reduces signals in this frequency range too, so if among firs or pines there could be maybe another 25% of the signal lost. And there could be weak batteries when activated and time reducing that. There is more RF power available from a spark made by shorting a regular 9V transistor battery with a foot-long wire than this.
It is indeed sometimes like looking for a needle in a haystack, but this 'needle' runs on batteries which will make it disappear soon when they're spent. I hate to say it, but if they haven't located the signal by now it's not likely to happen.
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Yes I worked on commercial communications radios so have a 1st class FCC license. The first day they should have found the aircraft with a VHF directional finder. I was out in our boat one day and reported an abandoned sinking boat and 5 minutes later a coast guard Falcon 20 came right over our boat.
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Just curious, is this ELT on VHF121.5 or UHF406? I can't seem to find that answer anywhere.
I understand the reasons for transitioning to 406 but I would have thought it more prudent to continue at least limited monitoring of 121.5 by satellite until no more were left in use. That one thing alone might have had a very positive effect here due to 'line of sight' being better than terrestrial. Good that 121.5 is still 'guard' for A/C, at least someone might catch a signal when that's desperately needed.
You may be aware/interested that the old HF maritime 'guard' requirement on 2182 kHz has been abandoned, leaving a significant number of private sailors who don't have ELT's out in the cold once out of VHF range. Most of that private traffic switched to the 14.300kHz Ham "Maratime Mobile Net" freq but the commercial shipping switched to satcoms, with almost all just dumping their HF radios completely. That too might have been a grave mistake.
You can't stop progress I guess, even when it goes backwards
Best Regards!
I understand the reasons for transitioning to 406 but I would have thought it more prudent to continue at least limited monitoring of 121.5 by satellite until no more were left in use. That one thing alone might have had a very positive effect here due to 'line of sight' being better than terrestrial. Good that 121.5 is still 'guard' for A/C, at least someone might catch a signal when that's desperately needed.
You may be aware/interested that the old HF maritime 'guard' requirement on 2182 kHz has been abandoned, leaving a significant number of private sailors who don't have ELT's out in the cold once out of VHF range. Most of that private traffic switched to the 14.300kHz Ham "Maratime Mobile Net" freq but the commercial shipping switched to satcoms, with almost all just dumping their HF radios completely. That too might have been a grave mistake.
You can't stop progress I guess, even when it goes backwards
Best Regards!
Still no NTSB preliminary report yet.
The latest news reports indicate that the search activities are winding down. One of the articles included a link to a website dedicated to the collection and dissemination of information concerning the search. The site includes allot more information than I've seen published thus far.
The search efforts appear to have been substantial indeed, including the participation and resources of several county, state and federal agencies. Dozens of volunteer searchers have assisted in air and ground search activities, but to no avail thus far. After 11 days of active searching without success, the families of the missing haven't given up all hope, but appear to recognize and acknowledge the realities of the situation.
Not a friendly place to suffer an engine failure...
westhawk
The latest news reports indicate that the search activities are winding down. One of the articles included a link to a website dedicated to the collection and dissemination of information concerning the search. The site includes allot more information than I've seen published thus far.
The search efforts appear to have been substantial indeed, including the participation and resources of several county, state and federal agencies. Dozens of volunteer searchers have assisted in air and ground search activities, but to no avail thus far. After 11 days of active searching without success, the families of the missing haven't given up all hope, but appear to recognize and acknowledge the realities of the situation.
Not a friendly place to suffer an engine failure...
westhawk
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thinking the weak ELT might have been from another plane just sitting at the airport...in GA planes we used to tune 121.5 before shutdown to make sure we hadn't set off the ELT.
don't know what radio freq was being used...wish 121.5 was still standard, as bkubbers said, you listen on guard, break squelch, report hearing and loss and help out atc.
don't know what radio freq was being used...wish 121.5 was still standard, as bkubbers said, you listen on guard, break squelch, report hearing and loss and help out atc.
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This really struck a chord with me. The aircraft has still not been found, but I think we can all resonate with this.
This from another source..............
In the interest of education, and in the hope that by doing so, perhaps a similar such tragedy may be avoided in the future, I am taking the liberty of re-posting two messages regarding this accident from the Cessna Pilots Association forums.
May they rest in peace.
John
====================
Friends: This accident troubles me because I was flying in the same general area on the same day, the Sunday after Thanksgiving (December 1st).
The pilot departed Baker City, Oregon (BKE) for Butte, Montana (BTM) in a 1983 Beech Bonanza. Aboard were his son, daughter, and their significant others. With five people, baggage, and fuel, the Bonanza would have been close to maximum gross weight.
Given the weather that day, the flight would almost certainly have been on an IFR flight plan of only about 1.5 hours duration or less because of strong tailwinds aloft. But it would also have taken the aircraft across some of the most remote mountain wilderness country in the lower 48 states. The River of No Return Wilderness in central Idaho was named after the Salmon River, which Lewis & Clark called the "River of No Return" because it was so rugged. Those of you who have had the pleasure of floating the Salmon River will know what i mean.
The MEAs in the area are between 12,000 and 13,000 ft. That day, a major Pacific storm system had moved into eastern Oregon and central Idaho from the west, accompanied by the usual AIRMETs for icing, mountain obscuration, turbulence, and low-level wind shear. Winds aloft were forecast to be 50-60 kt at en route altitudes.
The same morning, I planned to return to California from Boise, Idaho where I had spent Thanksgiving with my mother, brother, and his family. The leading (southern) edge of the storm system had already reached Boise and light rain was falling. However, the weather along my route of flight was forecast to improve dramatically about 100 miles south of Boise. Northern Nevada and the High Sierra were forecast to be clear or scattered clouds.
Nonetheless, I was concerned enough about the weather in the departure area that my wife and I decided she would fly home with our two children via the airlines. When the kids are aboard, she has little tolerance for turbulence or icing, having experienced plenty of both over the years. So I launched for California in the T210 by myself and they boarded US Airways.
The weather en route was slightly better than forecast, although the winds aloft were strong and there was continuous light, occasional moderate turbulence at all altitudes. I managed to stay out of the clouds by finding a clear layer and going VFR On Top at 10,500 and eventually 12,500 ft. Salt Lake Center was happy to give me vectors for shortcuts along the airways southwest towards Reno and home in California.
Not far north, however, the weather was much worse. The accident pilot would have been flying through the heart of the storm system. Although the news reports mention that the pilot reported engine trouble, I have to think he would also have been experiencing icing and turbulence. He's reported to have asked ATC for vectors to Yellow Pine, which would have been about halfway through the flight. The nearest airstrip would have been Johnson Creek, a backcountry strip with no instrument approaches and very likely obscured by clouds and precipitation that day. Searchers still have not found the aircraft or passengers despite looking for more than a week.
This incident made me reconsider my decision to spend $1,200 to send my family home via the airlines rather than fly them back to California myself. On one hand, my flight back wasn't particularly challenging, certainly nothing like what the accident pilot would have experienced from the weather alone. And I was flying over relatively benign terrain compared to his journey. In contrast to the Salmon River country where he apparently went down, the High Desert of southwestern Idaho, southeastern Oregon, and northern Nevada is mainly sagebrush plains and dry lake beds that afford plenty of off-airport safe landing sites. While the region is remote and unpopulated, aircraft forced to land there would be far easier to locate.
From what I saw of the weather that day, I would not have attempted to fly the accident airplane's route whether my family was aboard or not. Of course, if the Bonanza was equipped with TKS or another form of Known Ice protection, then perhaps the pilot discounted the icing element of the weather. And he didn't have the option of sending his family home via the airlines, since unlike Boise, Baker City, Oregon doesn't have airline service.
Hopefully they'll find the accident airplane soon and my some miracle the pilot and passengers will have survived. But every day makes that less likely given the winter temperatures and deteriorating weather conditions in the area.
Whenever I read this kind of accident report, I try and put myself in the pilot's place. On this occasion, I could do that more easily because I read the same weather reports he did and had to make a similar go/no-go decision not far south on the same day. As John & Martha King and many others have pointed out, flight safety has a lot more to do with good judgment, decision making, and risk management than stick-and-rudder skills. Those decisions are sometimes pretty nuanced, but given what I saw on the weather reports that day, I would not have flown the route taken by the accident airplane. We each have our personal weather limitations, and the conditions that day would have exceeded mine.
This from another source..............
In the interest of education, and in the hope that by doing so, perhaps a similar such tragedy may be avoided in the future, I am taking the liberty of re-posting two messages regarding this accident from the Cessna Pilots Association forums.
May they rest in peace.
John
====================
Friends: This accident troubles me because I was flying in the same general area on the same day, the Sunday after Thanksgiving (December 1st).
The pilot departed Baker City, Oregon (BKE) for Butte, Montana (BTM) in a 1983 Beech Bonanza. Aboard were his son, daughter, and their significant others. With five people, baggage, and fuel, the Bonanza would have been close to maximum gross weight.
Given the weather that day, the flight would almost certainly have been on an IFR flight plan of only about 1.5 hours duration or less because of strong tailwinds aloft. But it would also have taken the aircraft across some of the most remote mountain wilderness country in the lower 48 states. The River of No Return Wilderness in central Idaho was named after the Salmon River, which Lewis & Clark called the "River of No Return" because it was so rugged. Those of you who have had the pleasure of floating the Salmon River will know what i mean.
The MEAs in the area are between 12,000 and 13,000 ft. That day, a major Pacific storm system had moved into eastern Oregon and central Idaho from the west, accompanied by the usual AIRMETs for icing, mountain obscuration, turbulence, and low-level wind shear. Winds aloft were forecast to be 50-60 kt at en route altitudes.
The same morning, I planned to return to California from Boise, Idaho where I had spent Thanksgiving with my mother, brother, and his family. The leading (southern) edge of the storm system had already reached Boise and light rain was falling. However, the weather along my route of flight was forecast to improve dramatically about 100 miles south of Boise. Northern Nevada and the High Sierra were forecast to be clear or scattered clouds.
Nonetheless, I was concerned enough about the weather in the departure area that my wife and I decided she would fly home with our two children via the airlines. When the kids are aboard, she has little tolerance for turbulence or icing, having experienced plenty of both over the years. So I launched for California in the T210 by myself and they boarded US Airways.
The weather en route was slightly better than forecast, although the winds aloft were strong and there was continuous light, occasional moderate turbulence at all altitudes. I managed to stay out of the clouds by finding a clear layer and going VFR On Top at 10,500 and eventually 12,500 ft. Salt Lake Center was happy to give me vectors for shortcuts along the airways southwest towards Reno and home in California.
Not far north, however, the weather was much worse. The accident pilot would have been flying through the heart of the storm system. Although the news reports mention that the pilot reported engine trouble, I have to think he would also have been experiencing icing and turbulence. He's reported to have asked ATC for vectors to Yellow Pine, which would have been about halfway through the flight. The nearest airstrip would have been Johnson Creek, a backcountry strip with no instrument approaches and very likely obscured by clouds and precipitation that day. Searchers still have not found the aircraft or passengers despite looking for more than a week.
This incident made me reconsider my decision to spend $1,200 to send my family home via the airlines rather than fly them back to California myself. On one hand, my flight back wasn't particularly challenging, certainly nothing like what the accident pilot would have experienced from the weather alone. And I was flying over relatively benign terrain compared to his journey. In contrast to the Salmon River country where he apparently went down, the High Desert of southwestern Idaho, southeastern Oregon, and northern Nevada is mainly sagebrush plains and dry lake beds that afford plenty of off-airport safe landing sites. While the region is remote and unpopulated, aircraft forced to land there would be far easier to locate.
From what I saw of the weather that day, I would not have attempted to fly the accident airplane's route whether my family was aboard or not. Of course, if the Bonanza was equipped with TKS or another form of Known Ice protection, then perhaps the pilot discounted the icing element of the weather. And he didn't have the option of sending his family home via the airlines, since unlike Boise, Baker City, Oregon doesn't have airline service.
Hopefully they'll find the accident airplane soon and my some miracle the pilot and passengers will have survived. But every day makes that less likely given the winter temperatures and deteriorating weather conditions in the area.
Whenever I read this kind of accident report, I try and put myself in the pilot's place. On this occasion, I could do that more easily because I read the same weather reports he did and had to make a similar go/no-go decision not far south on the same day. As John & Martha King and many others have pointed out, flight safety has a lot more to do with good judgment, decision making, and risk management than stick-and-rudder skills. Those decisions are sometimes pretty nuanced, but given what I saw on the weather reports that day, I would not have flown the route taken by the accident airplane. We each have our personal weather limitations, and the conditions that day would have exceeded mine.
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Not a whole lot of new info here, but does verify some of what's been reported so far.
With radar contact having been lost above 10,000' and lots of rapid variation in terrain elevation in that area, finding the wreckage is a daunting task. As for survival, Even Survivorman Les Stroud would require some extraordinarily good fortune to go along with his considerable skills.
With radar contact having been lost above 10,000' and lots of rapid variation in terrain elevation in that area, finding the wreckage is a daunting task. As for survival, Even Survivorman Les Stroud would require some extraordinarily good fortune to go along with his considerable skills.
Originally Posted by NTSB
NTSB Identification: WPR14FAMS1
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, December 01, 2013 in Yellow Pine, ID
Aircraft: BEECH B36TC, registration: N36ML
Injuries: 5 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
On December 1, 2013, at 1303 mountain standard time, a Beech B36TC, N36ML, lost radar and radio communication in the vicinity of Johnson Creek Airport (3U2), Yellow Pine, Idaho. The airplane was registered to and operated by the pilot under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. The instrument rated private pilot and his four passengers are missing and the airplane has not been located. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed for the personal flight. The cross-country flight originated from Baker City, Oregon, about 1225 with an intended destination of Butte, Montana.
Preliminary information provided from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) revealed that the pilot was issued an IFR clearance to Butte, Montana with a cruise altitude of 13,000 feet mean sea level (msl). As the flight was about 15 miles east of the Donnelly Very High Frequency Omnidirectional Range (VOR), the controller noticed that the airplane deviated from his course and questioned the pilot. The pilot reported that he was picking up significant icing and requested to descend to 11,000 feet msl. The controller subsequently cleared the pilot to descend to the minimum vectoring altitude (MVA) of 12,000 feet msl.
Shortly after, the pilot requested to divert to Salmon, Idaho, and was subsequently issued clearance to the Lemhi County Airport, Salmon, Idaho. The controller observed the airplane descend below 11,900, which was the minimum safe altitude warning (MSAW) and issued an alert to the pilot. The pilot informed the controller he was having engine problems and was unable to maintain altitude and requested to divert to McCall, Idaho. The controller suggested headings for McCall and provided the location of Johnson Creek Airport. Subsequently, radar and radio contact was lost about 0.5 miles northeast of 3U2 at an altitude of 10,100 feet msl. The FAA issued an alert notice (ALNOT) at 1328.Index for Dec2013 | Index of months
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, December 01, 2013 in Yellow Pine, ID
Aircraft: BEECH B36TC, registration: N36ML
Injuries: 5 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
On December 1, 2013, at 1303 mountain standard time, a Beech B36TC, N36ML, lost radar and radio communication in the vicinity of Johnson Creek Airport (3U2), Yellow Pine, Idaho. The airplane was registered to and operated by the pilot under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. The instrument rated private pilot and his four passengers are missing and the airplane has not been located. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed for the personal flight. The cross-country flight originated from Baker City, Oregon, about 1225 with an intended destination of Butte, Montana.
Preliminary information provided from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) revealed that the pilot was issued an IFR clearance to Butte, Montana with a cruise altitude of 13,000 feet mean sea level (msl). As the flight was about 15 miles east of the Donnelly Very High Frequency Omnidirectional Range (VOR), the controller noticed that the airplane deviated from his course and questioned the pilot. The pilot reported that he was picking up significant icing and requested to descend to 11,000 feet msl. The controller subsequently cleared the pilot to descend to the minimum vectoring altitude (MVA) of 12,000 feet msl.
Shortly after, the pilot requested to divert to Salmon, Idaho, and was subsequently issued clearance to the Lemhi County Airport, Salmon, Idaho. The controller observed the airplane descend below 11,900, which was the minimum safe altitude warning (MSAW) and issued an alert to the pilot. The pilot informed the controller he was having engine problems and was unable to maintain altitude and requested to divert to McCall, Idaho. The controller suggested headings for McCall and provided the location of Johnson Creek Airport. Subsequently, radar and radio contact was lost about 0.5 miles northeast of 3U2 at an altitude of 10,100 feet msl. The FAA issued an alert notice (ALNOT) at 1328.Index for Dec2013 | Index of months
The B-36TC is indeed fuel injected. And turbocharged. The alternate air door should be "sucked" open anytime the air filter becomes clogged enough to create a differential pressure across the filter sufficient to overcome the spring tension holding the alternate air door closed. IIRC, the alternate air door should open with a delta P of only a couple inches Hg.
The interaction between the alternate air door actuation, turbocharger, fuel injection servo and waste gate controller has the makings of a fine esoteric technical discussion. But I'd need to get my hands on the manuals to make a case I felt comfortable with. It's quite possible that the mixture ratio could be affected in this scenario, possibly leading to engine roughness or reduction in power output. The devil is in the details.
westhawk
The interaction between the alternate air door actuation, turbocharger, fuel injection servo and waste gate controller has the makings of a fine esoteric technical discussion. But I'd need to get my hands on the manuals to make a case I felt comfortable with. It's quite possible that the mixture ratio could be affected in this scenario, possibly leading to engine roughness or reduction in power output. The devil is in the details.
westhawk