AA Crash Jamaica
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Step down, aka 'dive and drive', are dumb UNLESS operational required.
If they were so great FMC/GPS/RNAV/RNP approaches would be designed as 'dive and drive'. In general they are not.
If they were so great FMC/GPS/RNAV/RNP approaches would be designed as 'dive and drive'. In general they are not.
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I guess they still do step down approaches. Other than at home base that is all I did since terrain prevented anything else at TGU in Honduras. We didn't line up with the runway until 100 ft AGL. Try doing that on autopilot. That hill on final approach to the north makes every approach impossible with out a competent hand flown approach. I always thought step down approaches were very easy. Now they are hard????? 8 years ago we had a VDP to help on the final segment. We don't have that any more? AF has shown what automation dependence can do to a crew not capable of hand flying. Hopefully this is not spreading to the whole industry.
Step down approaches have been working just fine for decades. It just takes a real pilot to transition to the final landing phase to make it work properly. Push button pilots running a computer might not find it easy because they are not real pilots, just push button pilots. Blast away.
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This is the principal IAP into KSAN. When the stratus sits at around 800-3, you indeed have to dive-and-drive, if you want to land. It's lousy and no one likes it. But, there is an "illegal" (improperly approved contrary to FAA airport guidance rules) 90' parking structure just off the approach end of the runway. The threshold has a substantial displacement for landing.
Runway 9 has an ILS albeit a compromised one (higher than standard minimums). Runway 9 is mostly used only during winer pre-frontal rain storms when the wind is out of the east.
I flew out of this airport a whole lot, with 727s, 767s, and L1011s. With the 1011, the final segment descent gradient exceeded FAA and company policy, but everyone looks the other way.
What a lousy place to have a high-use air carrier jet airport.
Runway 9 has an ILS albeit a compromised one (higher than standard minimums). Runway 9 is mostly used only during winer pre-frontal rain storms when the wind is out of the east.
I flew out of this airport a whole lot, with 727s, 767s, and L1011s. With the 1011, the final segment descent gradient exceeded FAA and company policy, but everyone looks the other way.
What a lousy place to have a high-use air carrier jet airport.
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I cannot see why you cannot fly a CDA from Reebo?
).That dive and drive non-precision approach stuff is thankfully mostly gone with the dinosaurs.
More here in Aviation Circular 120-108:
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...%20120-108.pdf
That parking garage on short final to SAN has been there for a long time. I can remember seeing the keys in the hand of a guy getting out of his car on the top deck as I took a military trainer in there years ago. I had lunch at Boom Trenchard's Flare Path restaurant and got the t-shirt.
Last edited by Airbubba; 2nd Jan 2012 at 19:38.
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Airbubba:
True, it wasn't built recently. But, it was built during the years I was flying air carriers ops into the airport. It just didn't seem right. So, I believe it was ALPA that obtained the survey data on the building and determined that it should have been determined a hazard during the FAA's Part 77 aeronautical study. That got the FAA a lot of negative press. They finally admitted that they had screwed up. Had they issued the correct determination the building would have either been (if I recall correctly) 38 feet lower or not built at all.
I believe the displaced threshold for Runway 27 became longer because of that building, which wasn't exactly an airport safety enhancement.
That parking garage on short final to SAN has been there for a long time. I can remember seeing the keys in the hand of guy getting out of his car on the top deck as I took a military trainer in there years ago. I had lunch at Boom Trenchard's Flare Path restaurant and got the t-shirt.
I believe the displaced threshold for Runway 27 became longer because of that building, which wasn't exactly an airport safety enhancement.
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OK465:
They are fantastic. Trouble is, few will ever be able to play in that sand box because the bar is set very high.
And, you mention PAJN. Only the home-plate airline gets to fly that one. I can have the best equipped RNP AR airplane going and Alaska Airlines in concert with the FAA has locked me out of Alaska Airline's "little part of the world." The state of Alaska shamefully has only one public RNP AR approach procedure. The remainder (and there are quite a few) are preferential special (private) procedures that exist to help a monopoly airline.
Once you seen a few of these unusually intricate RNP AR approaches (MHTG, ZUNZ, KPSP, PAJN, 'Red Dog', etc.) you gain a high degree of comfort and confidence in this capability.
And, you mention PAJN. Only the home-plate airline gets to fly that one. I can have the best equipped RNP AR airplane going and Alaska Airlines in concert with the FAA has locked me out of Alaska Airline's "little part of the world." The state of Alaska shamefully has only one public RNP AR approach procedure. The remainder (and there are quite a few) are preferential special (private) procedures that exist to help a monopoly airline.
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OK465, don't tell me they are doing approaches to TGU with 600 ft minimums. That is crazy. I made 600 approaches with minimums 2700 ft above the airport and barely got in. Are you sure about that. My retirement flight was 8 years ago. I wouldn't have done it.
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Also with a 2700 ft minimum altitude only had to go to an alternate once in 600 flts. Not worthy of a 600 ft minimum with the risks involved. No other airliner made it in that day either, not even Taca, who somehow always manages to land. Even if they go off the cliff.
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I guess you trust that automation a lot more than I to be that close to the rocks off your right wing at your altitude with no visual contact than me at 600 ft. As I said in an earlier post once in 600 approaches we could not land nor could anybody else that day. Why subject yourself to trusting your GPS to not kill you?
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bubbers44:
He is sure about that. In order to fly these IAPs you have to have special training. The aircraft has to have dual GPS, EGPWS with terrain modeling for TGU. dual FMS, at least one IRU (three is typical), and at least dual autopilots. Also, highly accurate VNAV. So, you just couple up and enjoy a very precise ride to the runway.
Runway 20 is fully compliant with standard RNP AR criteria. Runway 02 is not because of the visual segment turn. Nonetheless, it is quite safe:
OK465, don't tell me they are doing approaches to TGU with 600 ft minimums. That is crazy. I made 600 approaches with minimums 2700 ft above the airport and barely got in. Are you sure about that. My retirement flight was 8 years ago. I wouldn't have done it.
In order to fly these IAPs you have to have special training. The aircraft has to have dual GPS, EGPWS with terrain modeling for TGU. dual FMS, at least one IRU (three is typical), and at least dual autopilots. Also, highly accurate VNAV. So, you just couple up and enjoy a very precise ride to the runway.Runway 20 is fully compliant with standard RNP AR criteria. Runway 02 is not because of the visual segment turn. Nonetheless, it is quite safe:
bubbers,
The GPS equipped red/white/blue silver birds do a much better job down south than the IRS birds we flew in the 1990's. Maps shifts seemed to happen everywhere on approach before the databases/equipment were updated.
ps. we never flew together but I enjoyed seeing what kind of beans the people in those homes on left base into TGU were having for lunch on their checkboard tablecloths.
The GPS equipped red/white/blue silver birds do a much better job down south than the IRS birds we flew in the 1990's. Maps shifts seemed to happen everywhere on approach before the databases/equipment were updated.
ps. we never flew together but I enjoyed seeing what kind of beans the people in those homes on left base into TGU were having for lunch on their checkboard tablecloths.
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Flew with the CKA that had taken the camera man down to film the RNAV (RNP) 02 approach.
Glad someone posted the approach plate. The RNAV (RNP) 02 MAP TG011)is approaching the water tower on left base.
You can hear the guys walking through customs in MIA - with every step you hear this faint, metallic sounding 'click...click...click'
Fun stuff.
Glad someone posted the approach plate. The RNAV (RNP) 02 MAP TG011)is approaching the water tower on left base.
You can hear the guys walking through customs in MIA - with every step you hear this faint, metallic sounding 'click...click...click'
Fun stuff.
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For those of you who want to see how we did it 8 yrs ago here is my final 7 minutes of my retirement flight with a fellow pilot filming. Notice how easy it is if you don't make it complicated. www.flightlevel350.com search MHTG for Tegucigulpa and look 7 videos down for the 757 out the window view. It was my favorite airport because it was fun.
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Since 90 % of the TGU approaches are to the north because of the prevailing winds I guess we now agree that we cannot descend next to a hill off your right wing to 600 ft. Landing south is like any other airport but is rarely done at TGU. People that don't fly there have to understand what a normal operation is.
Landing south is a luxury because anybody can do it. Landing north is the normal way that requires precision. You just have to be a competent pilot to land north. It is not designed for amateurs. Now I understand what the poster said about you have to descend from 2700 ft to 600 ft no matter if you were on autopilot or not. We rarely landed to the south, mostly north, so not flying there and just looking at the approach, yes 600 ft to the south would be fine. It would be not a good idea to the north. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Landing south is a luxury because anybody can do it. Landing north is the normal way that requires precision. You just have to be a competent pilot to land north. It is not designed for amateurs. Now I understand what the poster said about you have to descend from 2700 ft to 600 ft no matter if you were on autopilot or not. We rarely landed to the south, mostly north, so not flying there and just looking at the approach, yes 600 ft to the south would be fine. It would be not a good idea to the north. Sorry for the misunderstanding.