US flying schools - any good?
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US flying schools - any good?
howdy,
just wondering if anybody could recommed any decent flying schools/clubs around the california area - I'm a JAR PPL living in the UK looking to come over and do some hour building and possibly more training (CPL/ME). However I've heard from afew people in the UK that some US schools will take advantage of inexperienced low hours pilots (me) especially us foreigners who aren't really familiar with US procedures etc. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
just wondering if anybody could recommed any decent flying schools/clubs around the california area - I'm a JAR PPL living in the UK looking to come over and do some hour building and possibly more training (CPL/ME). However I've heard from afew people in the UK that some US schools will take advantage of inexperienced low hours pilots (me) especially us foreigners who aren't really familiar with US procedures etc. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
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Hi,
I'm from Italy and did my commercial SE at Benbow Aviation in Torrance, just south of LAX in 2002. Nice airport (only one that doesn't get fogged out in the area), nice school and good CFI's.
I've flown all over (FL, TX, CA) and never had a problem, except when I decided to dump money in a big flight academy. DON'T DO IT! There are other schools on the field and at least a reasonably big little school in Santa Monica that might fit your needs.
Good luck
Wisepepper
I'm from Italy and did my commercial SE at Benbow Aviation in Torrance, just south of LAX in 2002. Nice airport (only one that doesn't get fogged out in the area), nice school and good CFI's.
I've flown all over (FL, TX, CA) and never had a problem, except when I decided to dump money in a big flight academy. DON'T DO IT! There are other schools on the field and at least a reasonably big little school in Santa Monica that might fit your needs.
Good luck
Wisepepper
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Good luck on finding a school that meets your needs. BUT before you spend all the cash think about using it to get an education in a different line of work, One that pays much better, less work, than flying. the good old days are over.
Hi Pre3sg. My crew was leaving DFW Airport about a year ago. The FO knows a furloughed Delta pilot who gives sim. and IOE training to brand-new CRJ FOs at airline 'Carbuncle'.
The IP was a passenger and walked up the jetway with us, told us that one guy was a CPA accountant in his previous job.
The guy had spent tens of thousands of dollars at Gulfstream in Florida. You basically get your ratings and YOU PAY to fly in the right seat of the Beech 1900. The airline pays you some per diem, but no salary. This Gulfstream program has become infamous among some pilots.
Anyway, that former Gulfstream pilot tried very hard to make it through the CRJ program at a very demanding US regional. But flying in Florida gave the guy almost no instrument experience and he could not keep up in the simulator. He might have spent $20,000 or more training at Gulfstream. What a heart-breaking experience, I suppose. Remember-the airline reportedly paid him NO salary during standard, revenue flight.
What a deal for the company!
This one regional which flies only CRJs has fired numerous pilots lately and according to the wife of another IP (she was our Lead Flight Attendant), the company will give a good bit of extra help to the lady pilots but the guys are often out of luck if they stumble badly in training. One of our captains told me that his son had more than a few hundred hours and was fired because he was not ready for his oral exam. The company pays almost nothing in Initial Training, and at least one new hires came straight from a single-engine Cessna 172, but have no idea whether he/she made it through to IOE etc. Quite a leap from a Cessna at 110 knots to a CRJ at anything from 500 mph down to ILS, VOR, BC LOC and NDB approaches at 130 knots-with flaps inoperative, probably 180 knots Vref: most CRJs have no slats. How about a single-engine ILS at 140 knots to minimums at 1800 RVR and land in a crosswind?
But what chance do many 300-500 hour pilots have training at 0600 in a regular sensitive simulator using many assorted types of checklists, normal and abnormal to comply with and an FMC to also learn?
Over here, Mesa Airlines has produced a very shiny, slick, large brochure which tries to recruit pilots into some sort of training package to fly either the EMB-145 or the CRJ. They make it look quite attractive and require no high school degree! Only a GED, which is considered nothing in the US, but they prefer no criminal history..... They don't mention that if you are paid, your pay is about minimum wage after having spent a gigantic heap of your money-or that of a wealthy relative.
You can be better paid driving either a fairly small delivery truck, school or city bus in Seattle, WA, than flying in the right seat of several US carriers' B-727 or DC-10 jets, for the first three years or so as First Officer. Hard to believe? Look at "airlinepilotpay.com", or, even better, "willflyforfood.cc" (click on pilot pay scales) and other sites. Most companies have no retirement fund and YOU pay at least %20 of any medical bills, plus large deductibles, are paid by YOU. Many medicines are not covered, even with my airline's better medical plan....With may airlines, don't get too sick or have a wife get hurt in an accident. When some low-life smashes in your car's side window, hoping to find something in the console between the seats, that will be about $200
, which you might not want your insurance to know about. Few businesses here require a guy with a credit card to provide a photo id. This is another dirty secret of the US system; a Walgreens' Manager told me, to my face, that this huge drugstore chain does not ALLOW its sales clerks to check a photo id. some credit cards require it, but what if your picture does not match? What will they do-challenge you? Don't expect too much.
And pay for a baby or two?
With this and a wife or girlfriend who can not work, you could qualify for govt food stamps.
You might do okay, but please check various sources and cross-check the different angles and options. You might want to avoid simply reading the glib brochures showing very young pilots with very shiny gold stripes, and company offers to train you (they won't pay for the training...and many are desperate for pilots with some good experience). Many thousands of laid-off, highly-experienced pilots can not afford to even work as modestly-paid ("direct-entry") turboprop captains. Many that I've worked with find better-paying jobs on the ground.
One guy who will get laid off-again (after only a year back with this large airline)-plans to teach CRM to doctors and nurses, based upon his several thousands of hours in twin turboprops and transport jets!
If you are very young and are willing to have no spare cash for a few years and are single, then there are possibilites and it might work fairly well-good luck over here.
The IP was a passenger and walked up the jetway with us, told us that one guy was a CPA accountant in his previous job.
The guy had spent tens of thousands of dollars at Gulfstream in Florida. You basically get your ratings and YOU PAY to fly in the right seat of the Beech 1900. The airline pays you some per diem, but no salary. This Gulfstream program has become infamous among some pilots.
Anyway, that former Gulfstream pilot tried very hard to make it through the CRJ program at a very demanding US regional. But flying in Florida gave the guy almost no instrument experience and he could not keep up in the simulator. He might have spent $20,000 or more training at Gulfstream. What a heart-breaking experience, I suppose. Remember-the airline reportedly paid him NO salary during standard, revenue flight.
What a deal for the company!
This one regional which flies only CRJs has fired numerous pilots lately and according to the wife of another IP (she was our Lead Flight Attendant), the company will give a good bit of extra help to the lady pilots but the guys are often out of luck if they stumble badly in training. One of our captains told me that his son had more than a few hundred hours and was fired because he was not ready for his oral exam. The company pays almost nothing in Initial Training, and at least one new hires came straight from a single-engine Cessna 172, but have no idea whether he/she made it through to IOE etc. Quite a leap from a Cessna at 110 knots to a CRJ at anything from 500 mph down to ILS, VOR, BC LOC and NDB approaches at 130 knots-with flaps inoperative, probably 180 knots Vref: most CRJs have no slats. How about a single-engine ILS at 140 knots to minimums at 1800 RVR and land in a crosswind?
But what chance do many 300-500 hour pilots have training at 0600 in a regular sensitive simulator using many assorted types of checklists, normal and abnormal to comply with and an FMC to also learn?
Over here, Mesa Airlines has produced a very shiny, slick, large brochure which tries to recruit pilots into some sort of training package to fly either the EMB-145 or the CRJ. They make it look quite attractive and require no high school degree! Only a GED, which is considered nothing in the US, but they prefer no criminal history..... They don't mention that if you are paid, your pay is about minimum wage after having spent a gigantic heap of your money-or that of a wealthy relative.
You can be better paid driving either a fairly small delivery truck, school or city bus in Seattle, WA, than flying in the right seat of several US carriers' B-727 or DC-10 jets, for the first three years or so as First Officer. Hard to believe? Look at "airlinepilotpay.com", or, even better, "willflyforfood.cc" (click on pilot pay scales) and other sites. Most companies have no retirement fund and YOU pay at least %20 of any medical bills, plus large deductibles, are paid by YOU. Many medicines are not covered, even with my airline's better medical plan....With may airlines, don't get too sick or have a wife get hurt in an accident. When some low-life smashes in your car's side window, hoping to find something in the console between the seats, that will be about $200
, which you might not want your insurance to know about. Few businesses here require a guy with a credit card to provide a photo id. This is another dirty secret of the US system; a Walgreens' Manager told me, to my face, that this huge drugstore chain does not ALLOW its sales clerks to check a photo id. some credit cards require it, but what if your picture does not match? What will they do-challenge you? Don't expect too much.And pay for a baby or two?
With this and a wife or girlfriend who can not work, you could qualify for govt food stamps. You might do okay, but please check various sources and cross-check the different angles and options. You might want to avoid simply reading the glib brochures showing very young pilots with very shiny gold stripes, and company offers to train you (they won't pay for the training...and many are desperate for pilots with some good experience). Many thousands of laid-off, highly-experienced pilots can not afford to even work as modestly-paid ("direct-entry") turboprop captains. Many that I've worked with find better-paying jobs on the ground.
One guy who will get laid off-again (after only a year back with this large airline)-plans to teach CRM to doctors and nurses, based upon his several thousands of hours in twin turboprops and transport jets!
If you are very young and are willing to have no spare cash for a few years and are single, then there are possibilites and it might work fairly well-good luck over here.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 19th Dec 2005 at 04:00.
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thanks for the info and tips guys. You all seem very pescimistic over there - maybe you should come and live in Europe, things are not amazing for pilots at the moment but they sure as hell sound better than over there, especially in terms of wages.
Kind regards,
Scott.
Kind regards,
Scott.
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Not all is that bad. Want a good flying school...Go to ATP. www.atpflightschool.com
Good folks, great programs and maybe an airline placement. Have faith!
Good folks, great programs and maybe an airline placement. Have faith!
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Ignition Overide - waaah waaaah waaah - don't apply for a job that doesn't pay you through training...simple. If noone applies there, they will raise the pay eg Pinnacle (pay through training), and in a few months will increase pay there too.
To answer the guys original question - try Angel City Flyers at Long Beach CA - great instructors.
To answer the guys original question - try Angel City Flyers at Long Beach CA - great instructors.
True Boxes, but you might be reading between the lines a bit. By the way, my brother also flew solo Aero Commanders years ago; whenever FOs were available, they often were foreign guys who paid the owner about $20/hour. With your solid background, you would have a much better chance at Pinnacle than many of the recent new-hires, even if you are a guy, who allegedly receives less extra help than a lady.
I've been mostly on DC-9s for quite a while (since '85), so none of this is my problem. Was only trying to pass on advice from many others I've spoken with over the years. Many pilots prefer to learn old lessons the hard way, but that is always their decision. Incidentlly, a friend quit Mountain Air Cargo (then an F-27 FO) because they often ignored seniority when they wanted to fill a Captain's seat, despite solid FO experience levels. They hired a few dierct-entry Fokker Captains, thereby avoiding the need to pay their senior FOs third- or fourth-year F-27 pay. One pilot got his ATR type-rating, paid for by the company, but the Chief Pilot could still not tell him when he could upgrade...
Lots of the Pinnacle new-hires (especially after the tragedy in MO.) have been fired, but lots make it through. They give more extra help to the lady pilots-this from the wife of an IP there. Even she was dismayed by the bias she heard about, first-hand.
Although Mesaba FOs earn about $1700/month, they are now also expected to accept paycuts. Baffling. Are their executives accepting huge paycuts? This is very much in doubt. Their bankruptcy judge excluded a $150,000,000 cash sum from the calcualtions of Mesaba's needs, because the money is with MAIR-their holding company!
I've been mostly on DC-9s for quite a while (since '85), so none of this is my problem. Was only trying to pass on advice from many others I've spoken with over the years. Many pilots prefer to learn old lessons the hard way, but that is always their decision. Incidentlly, a friend quit Mountain Air Cargo (then an F-27 FO) because they often ignored seniority when they wanted to fill a Captain's seat, despite solid FO experience levels. They hired a few dierct-entry Fokker Captains, thereby avoiding the need to pay their senior FOs third- or fourth-year F-27 pay. One pilot got his ATR type-rating, paid for by the company, but the Chief Pilot could still not tell him when he could upgrade...
Lots of the Pinnacle new-hires (especially after the tragedy in MO.) have been fired, but lots make it through. They give more extra help to the lady pilots-this from the wife of an IP there. Even she was dismayed by the bias she heard about, first-hand.
Although Mesaba FOs earn about $1700/month, they are now also expected to accept paycuts. Baffling. Are their executives accepting huge paycuts? This is very much in doubt. Their bankruptcy judge excluded a $150,000,000 cash sum from the calcualtions of Mesaba's needs, because the money is with MAIR-their holding company!
Last edited by Ignition Override; 22nd Feb 2006 at 06:35.
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I've been on DC-9s for quite a while, so none of this is my problem
So you moved on, and bettered yourself. If anyone thinks that a scumbag regional is a career, they need their head checked.
I was just answering his question, not belittling everyone.
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Re: US flying schools - any good?
Plenty of good places in the San Francisco Bay Area and also Sacramento area (avoid Sacto in Dec & Jan due to fog).
Sacramento area is probably the least expensive to stay in.
I would try to avoid very high density airports as time wasted sitting as number 20 for takeoff will not help you get experience. That said you also don't want to be some where that there is so little traffic you don't get the ATC experience.
California is a great place to go. More airplanes than any other state in the US. More airplanes tha any other country in the world as well.
Also nice weather.
Sacramento area is probably the least expensive to stay in.
I would try to avoid very high density airports as time wasted sitting as number 20 for takeoff will not help you get experience. That said you also don't want to be some where that there is so little traffic you don't get the ATC experience.
California is a great place to go. More airplanes than any other state in the US. More airplanes tha any other country in the world as well.
Also nice weather.
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Re: US flying schools - any good?
Had good experiences at Air Desert Pacific many moons ago flying around the LA basin. Do not know how they can help with JAA licenses but for the US stuff I found them sweet. Aircraft may not have best paint jobs etc the area around is a bit of a dump lots of trailer park trash if your into that. They have good deals on hour building. Torrance is quite a cool area to hand out if you like beach babes and wave breaks off piers.
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You will find great flight schools in the US. Cheap and good. Just don't put money up-front in any school. PAY AS YOU GO. Also, avoid big-name schools. They charge you lots of money- and in the end you get the same FAA license. In the end, one gives a crap if you went to flight safety or mom & pop's flying service.
The most important thing is- know the pilot certification requirements - do not fall for programs with tons of dual (with instructor) flying and stuff. For example: An instrument rating requires 50 hours of PIC cross-country time / 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time / minimum of 15 hours with a CFII(most students will need more than that though) / 3 hours of check-ride prep. You can be pro-active and make sure that your 40 hours of instrument training are done inside cross-country flights. Also, get a safety pilot (check US regs to find about safety pilot), do some of your instrument training + cross country PIC without an instructor. You'll have more fun and save plenty of bucks.
The most important thing is- know the pilot certification requirements - do not fall for programs with tons of dual (with instructor) flying and stuff. For example: An instrument rating requires 50 hours of PIC cross-country time / 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time / minimum of 15 hours with a CFII(most students will need more than that though) / 3 hours of check-ride prep. You can be pro-active and make sure that your 40 hours of instrument training are done inside cross-country flights. Also, get a safety pilot (check US regs to find about safety pilot), do some of your instrument training + cross country PIC without an instructor. You'll have more fun and save plenty of bucks.
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LA CFII-ATP
Howdy,
I teach all ratings and am a Citation captain at Van Nuys Airfield. Are you lookng for inexpensive or quality? It would be nice to receive both. AirDesertPacific in Chino is cheap for time building. Watch the maintainance. ADP stands for Another Dead Pilot. Aero Club at Van Nuys is another place to avoid. A propeller fell off their seneca some time ago and no insureance to cover the broken legs. They are also cheap. However, every airfield has good schools. Just a couple bad apples. Tell me what area you will be living in and I will stear yo to a quality flight school.
Big Arroyo
I teach all ratings and am a Citation captain at Van Nuys Airfield. Are you lookng for inexpensive or quality? It would be nice to receive both. AirDesertPacific in Chino is cheap for time building. Watch the maintainance. ADP stands for Another Dead Pilot. Aero Club at Van Nuys is another place to avoid. A propeller fell off their seneca some time ago and no insureance to cover the broken legs. They are also cheap. However, every airfield has good schools. Just a couple bad apples. Tell me what area you will be living in and I will stear yo to a quality flight school.
Big Arroyo
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Hi bigarroyo vbmenu_register("postmenu_2408624", true); ,
Can you give me any advice on some cheap decent schools around Long Beach area or close by.
Also can I do a part 141 commercial without having to do a 120 hour package deal?
Can you give me any advice on some cheap decent schools around Long Beach area or close by.
Also can I do a part 141 commercial without having to do a 120 hour package deal?
