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Norwegian Long Haul - selection and terms

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Norwegian Long Haul - selection and terms

Old 25th Aug 2013, 08:40
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But if you don't have such a good job (or perhaps no job at all for the moment), what should one do? Say no thanks because others on PPRUNE says it should be a better deal?
Listen, YOU have to decide what your services are worth. Nobody elsr does that for you in the contracting game. If you believe, taking into consideration your education costs, education length, job requirements in terms of your health, free time and legal responsibilities as a commercial pilot is worth X amount of euros then fine. That's your decision; that's your price to accept the legal responsibility of safely moving 300 of the companys customers from A to B.

And I'm not saying you're selling yourself short, maybe 3000€ is all a pilot is worth these days. Maybe you're right and they're overpaying the rest of us because risworth or parc are certainly not going to hire me at my expected salary level when you'll do it for much less. And experience? As a contract pilot it is your responsibility to perform the job correctly and efficiently time and time again, whether you're faced with a thunderstorm in the ITCZ, a bunch of asylum seekers 'losing' their passport in flight, a 6 hour delay at gate due to VIP movements in bangkok, a inflight diversion into china with a plane full of taiwanese, or being unavle to establish two-way radio contact with karatchi due to congestion before crossing the border. By taking the contract, you're being paid to deal with such issues and must feel comfortable in your ability to do so.

Just keep in mind that when the music stops, nobody is holding off a chair for you. The company, the contractor, the authorities, police and investigation team are all loking at you. There is an awesome amount of responsibility that comes with taking a sest on that jet; just make sure you're adequately compensated for it. Because long haul, to a even wider extent than short, involves so much more then just flying the damn thing. Christ, even monkeys can do that.

And one last thing... do not be delusional. Any european basing will trigger social benefit contributions from the company to the state of basing. Do you really believe they'll do that when there's a line of new kids ready to accept bangkok, singapore, beijing or hong kong where no such costs incur? Establishing a european base would bring Nothing but extra costs to the company with no added benefit. Google netjets, easyjet and ryanair together with social contributions.

There's an old saying that states you get what you pay for. I don't know to what extent that applies here, but I'd be surprised if there's not some truth to it.

Last edited by ENSA; 25th Aug 2013 at 09:18.
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Old 25th Aug 2013, 09:28
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ENSA, you seem upset. You should be happy for two things; the job you have and that others are happy about the offer from NLH.

I've done years of long haul. Rest assured, I know what it's all about. I'm not a pilot from a narrow body low cost operator that just want to fly a big aircraft. I am in the middle of my career and this is an active choice.

Get out there and enjoy your job and enjoy your life, and don't spend it here on PPRUNE and be sad.
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Old 25th Aug 2013, 09:54
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You should be happy for two things; the job you have and that others are happy about the offer from NLH.
The problem, friend, is that the job I have is under direct threat from jobs like yours. When you operate cheaply, my company can no longer compete... thereby forcing us down to your level or have no job at all. Which, as you infer, is probably making me a little upset and a little less happy than I should be. But, as I've previously stated, that is marked forces at play and proves the point that I'm overpaid compared to those willing to do it for less.

But have no doubts that in the future you yourself will be underbid. It's all math really; getting down to the lowest common denominator. The cheapest pilots set the floor for the rest of us.

Now, I don't want to spend my life commuting to Bangkok or some other pirate's cove so I figure my days might soon be numbered. And just to be clear; the only disagreement between you and I pertains to how we value ourselves. I wish you the best of luck and I have no doubt about the success of NLH. But constant jet lagged fatigue lived under the heavy weight of a 3 year renewable contract for pennies and stamps just isn't worth it for me.

As for me spending my Saturday evenings on PPrune; with your extensive experience I'm sure you're familiar with 18hour layovers in airport hotels where WiFI and the lobby bar make for the only entertainment.
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Old 25th Aug 2013, 10:09
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ENSA; I wish you all the best.

Regarding "the cheapest pilots set the floor for the rest of us" it can again be noted that the NLH net salary is better than the general salary in Scandinavia, better than the salary given by airlines such as SAS.

Regarding the set up by the company, it is up to EU, every member state and their regulators to act. But they can't unless they change the laws. And they have had plenty of time to do so if they so had wished. Thus, this set up is fully legal in all aspects.
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Old 25th Aug 2013, 10:50
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Regarding "the cheapest pilots set the floor for the rest of us" it can again be noted that the NLH net salary is better than the general salary in Scandinavia, better than the salary given by airlines such as SAS.
I'll take a pepsi-challenge any day of the week with you on that one.

Net salary is only a part of the costs of employing a pilot in Scandinavia, something NLH knows very well or we wouldn't be having this discussion. As you no doubt are aware, on top of net salary you must add
a) employment and social taxes
b) pension contributions
c) insurance contributions
d) social entitlement benefits such as maternity and welfare leave
e) additional crewing for sickness and not fit scenarios.
f) administration costs for Human Resources, workplace well being, employee advancement education and employee union administration costs.

In Scandinavia, it costs a company 2 million to employ a 1 million net salary employee who receives all the benefits above. By using Risworth or Parc, NLH in essence pays 1.2 million to employ a 1 million net salary employee who gets none of the benefits listed above. That's almost half the payroll expense for the company, so please spare us the net salary argument.

I completely agree; what NLH is doing is perfectly legal and you can't blame them for setting it up. My problem is that colleges are making this possible by selling themselves ridiculously cheap, foregoing all the benefits that we as a group worked 50+ years to achieve, and completely underbidding the rest of us.

But I'll give you this. There's too many pilots in the world, and an overabundance of supply drives down the prices. It's that simple, and we're all idiots for choosing this profession in the first place. At least if you have the brains to do something else.

Last edited by ENSA; 25th Aug 2013 at 10:52.
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Old 25th Aug 2013, 11:04
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ENSA, I mostly agree with you and your calculations. I am very familiar with the tax system in Scandinavia. Yet I maintain that "the NLH net salary is better than the general salary in Scandinavia, better than the salary given by airlines such as SAS".

I know you will disagree, but that's the end of this discussion for me.

For your info, at least one pilot at SAS has resigned to start with NLH. Doesn't mean much, but it's very interesting.

Looking forward to start my new job.
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Old 25th Aug 2013, 17:31
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So far I personally know 3 guys that got into NLH, one of them is already flying while the other two are in training.
There is a common denominator in all 3 of them even if they come from different backgrounds and countries: selfishness.
Each of them has always had a personal agenda and was always focused on their own careers and personal gains, often willing to step over others to get what they wanted.
All of them have very little or no real private life and basing, T&Cs and pilot body unity were never on top of their agenda.
Just hope the majority of the recruits isn't like them.
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Old 26th Aug 2013, 11:11
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A lot of sound agruments here, but the fact of the matter is that there is not enough positions available and too many unemployed pilots, in addition to liberalization of the profession, and last, but not least, flight schools advertising to wannabes that the industry is screaming for more pilots (yeah, right ) and that a job is almost assured once you get your fATPL and SSTR So which battle should be chosen? We who are unionized will keep fighting and trying to uphold some sort of standard whilst others try to tear them down (though I do understand the need for a job, but please try to work with us when you get that job, not against). ECA is trying to put pressure on EASA regarding, well, pretty much everything that is important nowadays, so how about supporting them in that battle? And how about getting the word out to the wannabes that the real world of aviation isn't necessarily the wonderful world of aviation that certain flight schools want you to believe. Maybe the combination of all of these things can help to put things right, but the golden days are dead and gone for sure . I, for one, have not and cannot encourage any wannabe who saks me for my honest opinion, to begin training towards a carreer in commercial aviation. Period.
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Old 26th Aug 2013, 19:05
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Sounds like maybepilot has never seen Top Gun...

Most pilots have egos and many have career aspirations that exceed his. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the business. Not suggesting people should stab each other in the back, but one person's dream career is another person's nightmare.

Last edited by Iver; 26th Aug 2013 at 19:07.
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Old 26th Aug 2013, 20:14
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Nothing but extra costs to the company with no added benefit. Google netjets, easyjet and ryanair together with social contributions.
Ensa , get your facts straight before making accusations.
easyjet are paying all social contributions and all (local) taxes in all countries on all (very good) contracts outside the U.K. as well , in e.g. France , Italy and Germany.
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Old 26th Aug 2013, 23:07
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Hey Joe2

Wind your head in and take a deep breath. What on earth are you on about?

The very fact that mentioned companies pay social taxes to the states of basing came about through rulings which, if you'd bothered to google the words instead of jumping to premature conclusions, provide presedence which others such as NLH will have to follow if they, as we were discussing before you so elequantly jumped in, were to eventually establish a european base.

Now breathe. Your 'fact' was my very point amigo.

Last edited by ENSA; 26th Aug 2013 at 23:12.
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Old 27th Aug 2013, 10:25
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Nevertheless , you're referring to easyJet and Ryanair in one line where it is obvious that Ryanair does NOT pay for local taxes and social contributions , which makes to whole difference between the two,

apart from that I think we both indeed mean the same thing
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Old 27th Aug 2013, 12:16
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joe two,

I have never heard "(very good)" being used to describe the Easy Portugese contract, but I guess with the way of the economy there it is better than some others.
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Old 3rd Sep 2013, 13:26
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NLH announces new routes to LAX, OAK and MCO

Looks like some new destinations for the 787s planned from all 3 Scandinavian hub cities:

Newsdesk - Norwegian

Will be a nice break from colder Scandinavian weather in addition to flights to Ft. Lauderdale and Bangkok. Oakland, California is a decent alternative from SFO - I am sure it is cheaper to operate from there which is important to their LCC model.
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Old 3rd Sep 2013, 15:15
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Fantastic news for those based in BKK to overnight in OSL with no allowance..hopefully there is 7/11 near by..
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Old 3rd Sep 2013, 17:55
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... where you might be lucky and find a 10USD hot-dog ...
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Old 3rd Sep 2013, 19:51
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How many 787s have NLH on order and option to date? With this sort of expansion with more new routes likely, I imagine NLH will also access lessors. 15-20 airframes at least - right? Obviously early success would mean more airframes in the future...

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Old 4th Sep 2013, 10:25
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Devil

Well ..but not the management pilots comfortably sitting in Scandinavia on a permanent Norwegian contract with all social security and benefits...how sick is this?

Last edited by cucuotto; 4th Sep 2013 at 10:25.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 17:20
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Iver - Oakland, California is a decent alternative from SFO
It's certainly an alternative. It's also a crime ridden cesspit. If NLH doesn't put you in a hotel outside of Oakland, you may want to consider not venturing outside. Oakland has has been consistently listed as one of the most dangerous large cities in the U.S.

Crime in Oakland, California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No U.S carrier has been able to sustain an effort to fly into Oakland solely as an alternative to San Francisco (SFO). Southwest relented and now serves both airports.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 21:12
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JP,

I believe Arkefly serves OAK from AMS using 767-300s. Yes, we all know OAK is inferior to SFO on many levels - but it is likely cheaper to operate there and it gets the passengers to the Bay Area.

If you are applying to NLH I guess you can assume you won't be staying at the Ritz on ANY layovers. Perhaps not even the Marriott.
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