Mazdata

"Adapt to the changes"

Qbrick - Web TV Professional

NAIA

Yes! We must establish An International Federation of Airline Pilots! We need someone to be the global voice of professional pilots.

Any ideas on how be should go about it?

International Federation of Airline Pilots' Associations - IFALPA

idiotsrus

Dear mr. Captplaystation.

Now that is seems likely that the Norwegian pilots are willing to strike for common rights for pilots as Yourself. What position will You and Your contract fellas be in all of this? Are You actually going to fly their aeroplanes from Your Torp/Malaga base?

captplaystation

It has so far taken the Norwegian CAA 9 weeks to NOT yet issue a security clearance to colleagues who joined before me, beginning to wonder if the Pilots Union have "friends" up in Bodø ?

Because of this, none of us have had much contact with normal line-guys.

My advice to the one I had contact with ,was to insist the Union adopt a strategy that does not alienate us, nor require us to breach our contract by NOT working.
It is not for me to advise/imagine how this could be achieved, but , I think it is sound advice.
Howzabout
Free Union membership for a week/month, offered to Crew reporting for work, allied to a Question of whether you ( now a Union member) wish to cross an official IALPA picket line ? just a suggestion.
I do not wish to be accused of being hypocritical, and I don't think I am, when I say, regardless of events, we cannot be expected to breach OUR contract, without some Union protection/mandate.
If a way is found to alleviate this, I am sure you will find most of us are supportive of your (or if I can be so bold as to suggest "our") cause.
Best wishes

idiotsrus

Interesting.
So while the entire Norway aviation community is sitting still, You will be out flying because they have to respect Your contract.
I wish You all the best with Your future in aviation.

de facto

Yes you all go on strike,protect our rights!!!but dont mess up my new job by letting me fly...
Playstation,,,seriously?

captplaystation

idiotsrus,

I don't ask you ,or anyone else, to respect my contract, what I suggest is that you don't expect I will NOT.
Assuming I phoned in & refused to fly on whatever day you are on strike, then what ?
I suggest Norwegian would advise my agency that my services were no longer required due to an unjustified absence. . . then what ?
In short order I would be replaced by someone else, what exactly does this achieve to further the cause of the permanent employees?
I have no dispute with my employer (the agency I remind you, NOT Norwegian) so on what grounds can I justify participating in any industrial action ?
What protection could I expect if I did ?
I imagine in Norway the industrial relation rules are fairly well defined/adhered to ,when industrial action is planned/executed.
I doubt if externally contracted labour would be included in those eligible to participate.
I remind you that very few of my colleagues have reached the stage of final line check. In most companies the line trainers are reasonably senior employees, could I reasonably assume that most line trainers are members of /protected by the Pilots Union. . . . .do you see where I am coming from?
No matter our personal sympathies , and speaking subjectively I do not see any fairness in a full-time FO being required to take a leave of absence & relinquish his permanent contract to achieve Command . . . . But, and it is a very big But, do you think it is reasonable to take offence at any of us Contractors who do not wish to throw ourselves on a sacrificial sword to help resolve a problem that, with good communication from both sides, should have been resolved quite some time ago.
I remind you, that this situation started, most recently anyhow,last year in HEL ,with the appalling contracts offered, be reasonable in the part you expect us to play in helping you to resolve something that your Union allowed to happen long before we were recruited.
I see it from your side, truly I do, I merely ask that you reciprocate by seeing it from mine.

witchiepoo

.....um yes! That is exactly what is expected! Management are screwing T & Cs for EVERYONE!! The Transavia gang understand it. The refueling gang understand it, the Spanish gang understand it, the cabin crew get it....so perhaps it's a language thing....the reason you were brought in, is because of the union action after HEL, so no absolution there. Perhaps if I translate into your language...
A Scab is a Scab!
Howzat!!!
Bitchypoo x

captplaystation

I won't lower myself to your current level in this "discussion",I prefer to play the ball & not the man.
I would caution that the biggest weapon used by M O' Leary to destroy T's&C's in this industry was "divide & conquer".
You seem to be doing a good job on your own of promoting that ambience.

For the avoidance of misunderstanding, even though we are at this juncture using the same language (mine, I do appreciate, & on a Nordic Language Forum,for which I thank you) please try to understand the implications of the fact that I, like all my "Scab" compatriots , understood signed & agreed terms in a contract. Our "employer" (be it Rishworth or PARC) has not breached any terms of this contract. Perhaps (in fact, for sure) you have a better contract, however, it is the best on offer to us, & I am not responsible, nor seeking that ,you accept my conditions.
Under what excuse can you justify me participating in your industrial action.
If I did , I would be "released" & merely replaced by another. Does that actually help you in some way ?

If your Union had previously been a bit more pro-active, & able to maintain two way on-going dialogue, perhaps you wouldn't be in the mess YOU are in now.
If your attitude to me is a reflection of that adopted by your Union in previous negotiations, should I be surprised at the situation that has come to pass.

Perhaps your efforts ( & venom) should be directed towards a Union, that I guess you pay good money to, that doesn't seem to have protected your employment prospects (certainly for Senior FO's) & doesn't seem to have come up with a cohesive means of utilising the existing social laws, nor the operational power of the line trainers, to achieve it's stated aims (nor indeed feels it neccesary to inform us Non Scandi speakers what exactly they feel we are doing wrong by respecting our agreed contracts)
After your rant on the last post, it would be shorter & easier to tell you to go & screw yourself, however, although you forget it, I am also working (indirectly I know) for Norwegian, doing the same job, & with the same aspirations as you, so I shall afford you, & your opinion, the respect I would wish for myself.
Don't blame Contractors for gatecrashing the party, as the door was left wide open, & we were welcomed in. The fight started long before we came along, &, from what I have heard, has always existed between several internal factions, all with different contracts. We contractors are possibly better served by letting you sort it all out, however, I know I am also part of it, & think we also deserve a voice in all of this.

Cloudius

I'm a member of a union and on permanent hire. I might be involved in the conflict as NF is considering some sort of action in support of NPF/Parat.

I fully understand CaptPS and the contractors dilemma in this case. Personally I will not consider them as scabs simply for fulfilling their contract. This is a fight for those of us lucky enough to have regular employment and backing from a union. This is not a fight for totally unprotected individuals.

A strike will be a legal action and by that give us as members necessary protection. If Norwegian uses contractors to continue their operation then the company must be stopped. Maybe it will be possible to deny them fuel?

The personal sacrifice for any singel contractor is potentially too great to be expected for them to take.

KristianNorway

There seems to be certain misunderstandings in here. I think some people in here don't know that there exists no legal framework that protects contractors. Especially not when it comes to industrial actions. That means they can't strike. It's illegal.
That's part of the problem with these contracts. Get enough contract pilots into Norwegian, and you practically shave off your negotiating power, which in any democratic society is what balances corporate power in relation to workers.
The possibility to strike is a legal tool unions utilize to put pressure on management, and normally pilots are protected by this legal framework.
No one would just set the parking brake one day without legal protection backing them, and we can't expect that from contractors.

That is, I really hope captplaystation and other contractors would step up and join the fight if they could. Other than that I don't see why contractors should have a voice in this at all. They have neither obligations when it comes to the union, nor rights. This is, as was said, the Norwegian pilots' fight.
And I really hope you succeed. You have all my support. I'm counting on you for my future in this business.

captplaystation

I thank the previous two posters for seeing the "bigger picture".

To characterise us as a bunch of pirates/buccaneers , there for the quick buck, is disingenious.
I doubt if many of us would be less than delighted if you won, and somewhere along the way we finished on the same T's & C's as existing employees.
As I said, how much we can help. . . . that is limited, but I am quite certain I , & I think most, will do our best to avoid hindering the cause, within what is contractually possible.
I can promise no more, but we are - finally - in the same boat as you, in this profession.

I should draw your attention to the link in post #5 in the thread "Taxman after Ryanair in Italy" in Terms & Endearment.

Food for thought for your Union.

RedEyeDriver

The truth of the matter is that, all you permanent holders in NAS are the only ones who really have the power to change. The contract guys are not there to fulfill your requirements. Most of the contractors are too busy to survive the daily life and keep their recurrency going. Sorry but that's the fact. I suggest you hold your **** together and suck it up before it's to late. Social dump lays around corner and will arise sooner than you think.

Icenor

I can only speak for myself, but I would say the typerating contracters have a very good relationship with NPF. Several of us where allready members of NF and now we are also in NPF. We will contribute in any legal way we can, and I'm positive the union is not going to ask us to do something illegal.

I don't know what the future holds for us, but I'm sure we stand a better chance if we are united, across companies and contracts.

Blackcoffeenosugar

Just to clarify.. The contractors in Norwegian are welcomed into the union?
That is great! (if true)

Init-Refpage

That`s right! They are more than welcome. In fact, many of our new pilots ar already in the union:-)

captplaystation

Icenor,

By "typerating contractors" I am guessing you refer to new non-type rated FO's ?

Are you guys employed through Rishworth/PARC/ARPI or directly by Norwegian ?

Mazdata

There is an "European Pilot Union" Group on Facebook!

Icenor

According to statements given to the media, apparently we can choose between the different agencies...

captplaystation

I believe that is the case, certainly rated guys had that choice.My main slant was whether you were agency or Direct.

OK, that is an interesting development.