aloha1985

To some the title in itself may be a contradiction in terms, but please bear with me. I'm in the final stages of a JAA crediting programme, and my instructor has mentioned that many who have done their flight training in the US, upon finishing up in Norway, sum up their total FAA hours and put it into their JAA logbook to keep things tidy. I like the idea, but amongst those I've asked there are very divided opinions about whether it's actually a legal thing to do.

My understanding is that a logbook is simply a way to document hours, and the hours therein are not more or less legal be they flown under FAA or JAA regulations as long as they are logged under the applicable rules (and/or document times related to obtaining a licence or rating).

Based on that I can't see a problem with transfering FAA hours into a JAA logbook. However, I also have an electronic logbook which I'd like to maintain in a JAR-compliant format. My dual received hours from the US are PIC hours under FAA regulations, but should I subtract the combined PIC/Dual received hours from the PIC totals when transfering, even though they are legal PIC hours as they were flown with US licences in N-registed aircraft?

To sum it up, does anyone have any experience with this, know what the legal issues around it are or have any thoughts about what is correct/incorrect with regards to transfering hours from one format to the other, or presenting FAA hours in a JAA compliant logbook format? Excuse the length of the post..!

Lucky7s

Basically hours are hours, as long as they are legit. Your logbook is a legal document, and in my opinion there are two ways you can do this. You can transfer every leg from your FAA logbook as a separate leg in your JAR-FCL logbook, or you can transfer your total hours from your FAA logbook to one line in your JAR-FCL logbook. In each case you need to refer to your FAA logbook in the REMARK section.

If anyone needs to look at your logbook, bring them both. When you’re on your fifth logbook, you just don’t care anymore.

aloha1985

Thanks Lucky! Still a bit unsure about how to sort it all out - especially considering my JAR-format electronic logbook, but I'll find some logical way of doing it. If anyone has any thoughts on how to sort it out, feel free...!!

Uncle Wiggily

Anybody who tells you that an hour in an N registered aircraft is worth less than a non-N registered aircraft is flat out wrong. Hours are hours.

Damn, this crap pisses me off.

aloha1985

Quagmire, that's what I also hear from some. Others said that the general practice was to transfer the hours, even though some admitted that it might not be the most correct practice. I guess it's a bit like IFR flying: JAR specifies actual + simulated, but practice is logging entire flights conducted on an IFR flight plan?! So I guess things are rather open to interpretation...! I just don't want to show my logbook to the NCAA or a potential employer, and not be able to defend the way I've logged my hours.

Wesker

I don't get why you would need to get another log book for your JAA flying. Why don't you just do the math when it's required by JAR. For example when it's time to unfreeze your fATPL.

8ah

My experience as an ex HOT in Norway was that the the hours flowh in US stays in your US log book. They ''Luftis'' does not accept them in your JAR Book. On the other hand it does not matter much to or from, only that on intervjues and any official use of the books you need to bring both.

Guttn

Shouldn`t be hard at all. Hours are hours. Period. As previously mentioned, you can keep your hours under FAA regs in your FAA logbook, and begin your JAA logbook by writing "hours transferred from FAA logbook" at the beginning or the first page. Don`t get hung up on thinking about what you think employers are thinking about, and think that you will be given the third degree about your hours, because you won`t. They might want to know how you got your hours... "I flew as CFI in the US, before coming back to convert my licenses" covers those bases nicely . The NCAA know (or at least they should by now) that license conversions from the FAA isn`t a big deal. Your examiner will not start adding up your hours with a calculator, and splitting them into IFR, simulated and/or actual... and so on

Son of a Beech

you can use all of your hours with two exceptions. You mentioned PIC and DUAL. According to JAA there an only be one person PIC in the Aircraft. not Two so either you are the captian or you are not If you had an instructor than you were student. I solved this by logging allhours that i didnt legally need to be DUAL just as PIC. According to JAA at the bottom of you logbook.

PIC + SIC + DUAL + INSTRUCTOR = total time (so you also don't log PIC and Instructor at the same time).

Problem 2 SIM time.

JAA Simetime is not written up as flight time just in the colom STD sesion, also not int the PIC SIC DUAL colom. Keep in mind that SIM time in a LEVEL C/D sim can be used towards your ATPL

My advice just transfer the hours to the top of your JAA logbook, not the first line and dont mention transfer from FAA logbook. and use your e-logbook to sort out the PIC/ DUAL probem and corret this also in your i logbook. You might loose som PIC time but in the long run it's more important to have a correct logbook.

For the rest. Once you have over 1500 HRS and an ATPL nobody gives a ****. I have 8000 Hrs and with all the 14 jobs sofar never had to show my logbook.

Good luck

TuckUnder77

Who cares?

Only YOU. It's your hours. It's your experience. Want to subtract some ~200 hrs from your total experience? Be my guest.

There's only been ONE SINGLE case where LT has shown actual interest in a logbook. That being a very particular case involving someone who definitely should have known better (or signed up for a less prominent position).

Don't worry. LT will never scrutinize your logbook. Unless you intend to become president of flight operations at SAS, Norwegian or Widerøe next week.

aloha1985

Appreciate the feedback everyone!

So far I have one FAA compliant paper logbook, one JAA compliant paper logbook, and a JAA compliant electronic logbook. My initial plan was to transfer all FAA hours into the JAA paper logbook, as well as logging every flight (FAA+JAA) in the JAA electronic logbook. I've removed my PIC time from all Dual flights in the electronic logbook, meaning that PIC reflects JAR definitions. The only loss I'm making is 100 hours of PIC time. The totals will be equal. IFR is a tricky one, but I'm pairing actual + simulated from the FAA logbook and adding that to the IFR column in the JAA book. Apparently the NCAA wants this to be flight plan time, although JAR-FCL specifies the IFR-column to be "simulated and actual." So, seems to be somewhat open to interpretation.

I could transfer PIC-time as-is, which would reflect reality, but I'm unsure if I can defend 1. Non-JAA recognised PIC time in the JAA logbook, and 2. An electronic JAA logbook specifying my instructor as Commander, but me logging PIC-time.

Another issue is the FAA "Dual given"... probably shouldn't be transfered to the "Instructor" column in the JAA logbook, huh?

This might be one, big unnecessary headache, but I've been trying to clean up my intercontinental logbook mess as correctly as possible. Want to be cocked, locked and ready to rock on the paperwork before submitting those applications!

Guttn

FAA "Dual given" = JAA "Instructor". It`s just a rewrite of your flight tme acting as an instructor. I`ve only been asked for my logbook at one of my 5 interviews, and that was because they wanted to see if my totals were equal to or more than on my CV, and if I had been actively flying the past year. Nobody gets hung up on adding the numbers to match your total time. Professional interviewers know that you log your hours slightly different from area to area, and that it`s not that important as long as your logbook correctly reflects your level of experience. I.e. a 250hr pilot will have a different logbook profile than a 3000hr pilot, and will also talk a different talk. The interviewers know this, so don`t sweat it

152wiseguy

I'll second what Guttn says with one exception: Japanese interviewers want to see everything adding up to the last minute! After 4000 hours of flying I applied via an agency for a job in Japan. They wanted lots of details about hours and they all needed to tally exactly. I had a couple of minor discrepancies regarding the logging of P1 u.s. (under supervision) amounting to under 10 hours of flying time. I tried to rectify it but finally they didn't take me for the interview!

FerrypilotDK

When I landed in Japan, I had to show how much fuel was left in the tanks, and the amount of oil in the engine..... they also took a fuel sample and if it looked like anything other than 100LL had been added.........non-acceptance of the aircraft for import!

Also had them tearing down an engine in China, as it had stopped momentarily on take-off. They had interpreted the flight manual. The fuel selector valve should be checked before take-off....to mean JUST before. So they had allowed air into the fuel line when swapping tanks and ......tada.....a sputter. Lead to a certain loss of face for the translator......

Explore

Picking up this thread again...

I now got a JAA PPL, and thinking about building some hours in Canada.

Can I log this in my JAA FCL book, or do I have to get a book for the flying in Canada.

The respons I got from LTT in Norway, was that time you fly in JAA is a own logbook, and the time outside of JAA-land is a own seperate book?

Is this normal practise in every european country, or just Norway? I'm strongly considering of getting a CPL license outside of Norway, due to the paperwork with LT, and how expensive they are.

polazarus

I've met people that did training in the US who used a jaa compliant logbook from the beginning, and logged according to jaa rules. It saves you alot of hassle. If Norway caa doesn't want "foreign" hours in the same physical logbook it's definitely a local thing. Most caa's don't care about details like that.

TuckUnder77

No problem.

Just log your hours, using the same logbook. Nobody will care or ask. Don't go about calling LT with these questions, they don't care about your well-being or your (lack of) experience. Go ahead, log your flying hours as you gather experience, use a single logbook. No worries. I've done so over the last 15 years, flying everything from the C152 to the B757, US and European aircraft. No problem, I'm still alive, earning my living from flying and various European CAA inspectors have been digging into my documents on a number of occations (SAFA ramp checks) without as much as a comment. Don't worry too much about these silly details you're asking about.

Again, there's only been ONE case in which LT has scrutinized logbook(s) - and that was a case which was just too obvious, calling for LT action.

Happy landings.

Goldenbawls

Én ting er å ikke føre alle enkeltvise flighter i Europeisk loggbok. Å gjøre dette virker både uriktig og usannsynlig strevsomt IMHO. Men totaltiden din er da "din" uavhengig av hvor i verden du har fløyet! Dersom man har 4000 timer i fra Afrika eller Samoa så er de fløyet og logget i henhold til lokale/nasjonale regs og til disse timene har Tullsynet ikke noe skulle ha sagt

Andre veien, fra JAA til FAA så fører man dette inn på "total from previous page" eller som en første linje i loggboka og summerer videre derfra. Personlig ville jeg forstått det meget godt dersom noen lot seg friste av å gjøre det på nevnt måte også fra FAA til JAA-bok

Å drive å trekke fra timer fordi de ikke er "JAA-godkjent" håper jeg inderlig ikke noen har fått beskjed om i fra Tilsynet uten grundig henvisning til relevant seksjon av JAR-FCL. La oss si du har 4000 timer Boeing-tid fra FAA/ICAO-land, er disse ikke gyldig i siden de ikke er fløyet med JAA Type Rating? Husk at Tilsynets oppgave og hjemmel er å passe på at operatører og piloter opererer etter gjeldende regelverk, ikke å finne opp egne regler via telefon eller mail.

W.O.W 84;
Jeg forstår at det er spørsmålstegn ved logging av PIC etter skill test, men dette med fartøysjef mens man har instruktør i høyresetet blir i Europa gjort i form av SPIC. Same ****, different wrapping. Dersom man har fløyet som instruktør i 800 timer etter CPL-oppflyging så er det da heller ikke unormalt å ha over 90% PIC-tid? Kan ikke begripe at noen skulle ha forklaringsproblem som følge av for mye PIC-tid. Tvertimot...

Nevn gjerne andre eksempler hvor FAA og JAA-logging er vidt forskjellig. Jeg kan ikke komme på noen i farten. -Dersom man følger JAR-FCL 1.080 vel å merke. Gudene vet at ikke alle på berget her gjør det.. Kremt IFR-tid. Host block tid.

Mer interessant er hvor lenge Tilsynet skal tviholde på særnorske BSL-regler? Frem til neste år? Vi flyr på felleseuropeiske JAA/JAR-FCL sertifikater, og opererer (kommersiellt) i henhold til felleseuropeiske EU-OPS 1/EASA CS-OPS 1-reglement. Hvorfor blande inn gammelmodige norske privatflyger BSL´r?

TuckUnder77

Sure, and those of us who have filled a number of logbooks definitely go about carrying'em all around at all times, just to document our experience. Naaah.

Don't worry. Do it the easy way. Don't make too much trouble for yourself, worrying about details which indeed are of no importance.

norgab

Heisann folkens. Gjør meg nå klar til flyvedelen i konverteringen min fra FAA til JAA. Har CPL ME IR. Jeg har logget 196 timer PIC i USA, men når jeg fjerner PIC-tid fra dual og checkrides, så ender jeg opp på 90. Regelen for å utstede JAA CPL er 100 timer PIC. Trodde hele tiden at jeg lå godt innenfor, men nå ser det ut til at eneste måte er å kjøpe 10 timer.

Vil si at forskjellen med logging av PIC på disse forskjellige stedene har mye å si for de som er i samme situasjon. Dersom man gjør all treningen der borte uten å bli CFI, så blir det ikke mye "ekte" PIC for konvertering.