Sim-partner wanted 737
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Sim-partner wanted 737
I am trying to get a 737-rating, and need to pair up with a sim-partner as I am not able to do the course continously. Preferably at OAA in Oslo.
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Zakka???
the year is 2010!!! The god old days are a thing of the past.....
Paying for my 737-800 rating landed me job with Norwegian. I`m NOT a shamed! :-)
the year is 2010!!! The god old days are a thing of the past.....
Paying for my 737-800 rating landed me job with Norwegian. I`m NOT a shamed! :-)
Last edited by Init-Refpage; 7th Feb 2010 at 03:15.
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Init-ref,
You should be ashamed.
You and everyone else who buys their own type-ratings are enablers who lets the companies get away with not paying for training. 2010 or not, if a company won't pay for their pilot's training they have flawed business model. properly training pilots is a cost of doing business and you can't afford giving your staff the education required to do their job you don't have a vialble business model.
When you bought your own type-rating you screwed yourself and somone else out of a decent job in the future. Because of people like you the practice of requiring individuals to pay for training will never diasappear. Just because I don't want to buy my own type-rating many companies will not hire me, i.e. they don't want my knowledge and experience I can bring to a company, they only want he/she who is willing to whore themselves out and go into debt to buy a job.
In fact what you are doing is diminishing your value as a pilot and at the same time doing the same to the rest of the pilot force in the world. Paying now may look like a good thing, but look into the future and see where you end up if your company goes under and you haven't paid off your dept and you have to get another type-rating to "get" (buy) another job. Now you are in the hole for two types. What you and people like you are doing is horrible!
Rant over!
Catans
You should be ashamed.
You and everyone else who buys their own type-ratings are enablers who lets the companies get away with not paying for training. 2010 or not, if a company won't pay for their pilot's training they have flawed business model. properly training pilots is a cost of doing business and you can't afford giving your staff the education required to do their job you don't have a vialble business model.
When you bought your own type-rating you screwed yourself and somone else out of a decent job in the future. Because of people like you the practice of requiring individuals to pay for training will never diasappear. Just because I don't want to buy my own type-rating many companies will not hire me, i.e. they don't want my knowledge and experience I can bring to a company, they only want he/she who is willing to whore themselves out and go into debt to buy a job.
In fact what you are doing is diminishing your value as a pilot and at the same time doing the same to the rest of the pilot force in the world. Paying now may look like a good thing, but look into the future and see where you end up if your company goes under and you haven't paid off your dept and you have to get another type-rating to "get" (buy) another job. Now you are in the hole for two types. What you and people like you are doing is horrible!
Rant over!
Catans
Actually AdverseLaw you are in luck:
I have nothing on for the forseeable future so I would be happy to be your sim partner.
Just let me know the start date and I'll be there to asssist as much as possible.
My fees are €700 per day plus per diems of €90pd and I expect a good/acceptable quality hotel.
Just let me know when my course costs have been paid also.
HJ.
I have nothing on for the forseeable future so I would be happy to be your sim partner.
Just let me know the start date and I'll be there to asssist as much as possible.
My fees are €700 per day plus per diems of €90pd and I expect a good/acceptable quality hotel.
Just let me know when my course costs have been paid also.
HJ.
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Allright – time to provoke! 
I guess the proper thing for init-Refpage to do, would be to go for a job with some low-life semi-legal company in Central Africa or Mongolia. A really ****ty SOP-lacking, tech log-tampering, high-risk job that pays less than mouldy peanuts, finally getting you that divorce. Just like one used to do in the "good-ooole' days". Then, after years of struggling his/her way up that painfully long and winding road, paved with sweat, blood, tears, false promises, hardship and bankruptcies - he/she will finally be awarded that glorious, well-earned position as Co-Pilot. Oh joy. Great idea. Brings a tear to my crocodile eye.
You hear these guys all the time, everywhere: I had to WORK my way up in life! Had me a dozen jobs, I did! Fifteen years of single pilot night IFR, flying recycled rubber penguin **** in a beat-up Zeppelin between Galápagos and Nairobi. "And you try and tell the young people of today that…and hey won't believe ya’ "
How many of you know someone who had to endure all sorts of crazy **** from different FBO owners in every possible shady corner of the aviation industry? I know my share of pilots who had put up with flying a Navajo for free and using their time off to drive a cab (owned by the boss, of course), and the dream was to get to fly a King Air in Rwanda. Because the Red Cross always paid your salary on time, and you would finally get some turbine flight time. Wow. Or was it really that much better to gain experience working for Kato, with a bonding for that Class Rating, while they were terrorising the Norwegian aviation community? Why would anyone in his or her right mind do such a thing just to be part of the transport industry? This business has always been anything BUT fair. It has ALWAYS been more about WHO you know, luck and the will and ability to bend over fast. And look at how the pay scales and seniority lists are made and followed. In which other business do you have to start from scratch, take a large pay cut and be treated like a newbie every time you switch jobs? If paying for a type rating is such an abomination, then why did any of us even consider paying for that CPL+IR? There is no difference between paying for one type of education or the other, since the Government (until about 1998-2000?) refused to provide even the smallest of loans to anyone going for a CPL.
Those days are now over. The days when only a relatively small percentage of pilots got their golden ticket to a handful of top notch airlines, flying business passengers and a few poor sods who had to pay through their noses in order to fund the Right Stuff's insane salaries and pensions. For most companies; not all. And by the way: Have you guys seen the new starting salaries in SAS? WAY below that of their competitor's. The world has changed. Also, the LCCs are flying passengers that would normaly not fly more than perhaps once a year. They have probably created more jobs for all of us. I don't see BA or LH expanding and slashing prices unless they have some competition...
Anyway you see it; it is wrong to blame individuals like Init-Refpage. You cannot blame a single refugee for not having the guts to stand and fight. If anyone has to take the blame it would have to be the unions. Only the pilot uniuons have the power to pull out of this dive. You do not have to agree with me Catans, but check your fire – you are in the middle of a classic blue-on-blue incident…
I guess the proper thing for init-Refpage to do, would be to go for a job with some low-life semi-legal company in Central Africa or Mongolia. A really ****ty SOP-lacking, tech log-tampering, high-risk job that pays less than mouldy peanuts, finally getting you that divorce. Just like one used to do in the "good-ooole' days". Then, after years of struggling his/her way up that painfully long and winding road, paved with sweat, blood, tears, false promises, hardship and bankruptcies - he/she will finally be awarded that glorious, well-earned position as Co-Pilot. Oh joy. Great idea. Brings a tear to my crocodile eye.
You hear these guys all the time, everywhere: I had to WORK my way up in life! Had me a dozen jobs, I did! Fifteen years of single pilot night IFR, flying recycled rubber penguin **** in a beat-up Zeppelin between Galápagos and Nairobi. "And you try and tell the young people of today that…and hey won't believe ya’ "
How many of you know someone who had to endure all sorts of crazy **** from different FBO owners in every possible shady corner of the aviation industry? I know my share of pilots who had put up with flying a Navajo for free and using their time off to drive a cab (owned by the boss, of course), and the dream was to get to fly a King Air in Rwanda. Because the Red Cross always paid your salary on time, and you would finally get some turbine flight time. Wow. Or was it really that much better to gain experience working for Kato, with a bonding for that Class Rating, while they were terrorising the Norwegian aviation community? Why would anyone in his or her right mind do such a thing just to be part of the transport industry? This business has always been anything BUT fair. It has ALWAYS been more about WHO you know, luck and the will and ability to bend over fast. And look at how the pay scales and seniority lists are made and followed. In which other business do you have to start from scratch, take a large pay cut and be treated like a newbie every time you switch jobs? If paying for a type rating is such an abomination, then why did any of us even consider paying for that CPL+IR? There is no difference between paying for one type of education or the other, since the Government (until about 1998-2000?) refused to provide even the smallest of loans to anyone going for a CPL.
Those days are now over. The days when only a relatively small percentage of pilots got their golden ticket to a handful of top notch airlines, flying business passengers and a few poor sods who had to pay through their noses in order to fund the Right Stuff's insane salaries and pensions. For most companies; not all. And by the way: Have you guys seen the new starting salaries in SAS? WAY below that of their competitor's. The world has changed. Also, the LCCs are flying passengers that would normaly not fly more than perhaps once a year. They have probably created more jobs for all of us. I don't see BA or LH expanding and slashing prices unless they have some competition...
Anyway you see it; it is wrong to blame individuals like Init-Refpage. You cannot blame a single refugee for not having the guts to stand and fight. If anyone has to take the blame it would have to be the unions. Only the pilot uniuons have the power to pull out of this dive. You do not have to agree with me Catans, but check your fire – you are in the middle of a classic blue-on-blue incident…
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Every once in a while I hear the ex-military guys bitch and moan about civilian pilots who actually paid their way to become pilots. Civilians just couldn't make the grade, so they went out and bought a civilian license instead. Basicly, in the words of Catans, were "willing to whore themselves out and go into debt to buy a job."
It's all a matter of perspective.
That being said; anyone willing to pay out of pocket for route competence training? Or landing recency requirements? How about cashing out for the low vis training once a year? Forking over a few hundred bucks to the checker as you complete your annual line check? It's not gonna stop until the profession no longer attracts the minimum required competence. Sadly, that minimum is getting lower every minute of every hour of every day.
Last edited by /385S; 8th Feb 2010 at 16:57.
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I believe there is a difference between paying for your own type rating and getting hired with a normal salary, as opposed to working for free to build hours, or even worse, paying to work (both of which amazingly enough are relatively common). That is what really ***** up the pilot job market IMO, not paying for your own training...
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Crossunder
I presume you were one of the ones who caved in and bought your way into the right seat of a 737 and trying to justify it. Maybe you did not cut the mustard with all the companies out there who provide you with the type rating, pay you full salary and per diems while in training.
Typed on 5 jets and 2 turboprops all paid for the companies I have worked for.
Not about to change that either. guess I´m old school and not the " I want it all, I want it now. Me, Myself and I generation"
Rant over from an old dinosaur.
Typed on 5 jets and 2 turboprops all paid for the companies I have worked for.
Not about to change that either. guess I´m old school and not the " I want it all, I want it now. Me, Myself and I generation"
Rant over from an old dinosaur.
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Please don`t confuse being ashamed with being a shame
. Catans is speaking some hard truth here. Unfortunately, a lot of this falls on deaf ears seeking big cash and a glamorous lifestyle. The 80s are dead and gone, and so are the T&Cs of yesteryear thanks to bastard companies and recruitment agencies taking advantage of a constant overflow of unemployed pilots. You can easily convince yourself, and fellow pilots in the same situation (looking for a sim partner etc) that this is the only route to follow. Hell, the automation is there anyway, so good old fashioned piloting skills are not a priority for an employer, as long as they don`t have to pay for you to qualify to fly their airplanes
. The quick route from flightschool into an airliner has become a norm in Europe especially, and all you hear these pilots talk about is money. Yes, money is important, but at the same time you need to have somewhat of a social life outside of where you work. Which way is this route taking us nowadays? How many are dead tired? How many friends still contact you just to hang out once in awhile. Not too many, since you`re always gone or trying to catch up on some zzzzzs
. IMO, the only way to end this social dumping is to get legislation in place illegalizing it. Yes, unions do play a role, and yes, I do hope they do something about this.
Crossunder likes to provoke
. Good on you! Throw some siht and get some in return, all in good fun. From what I recall h used to fly for a company who paid for his training etc etc, and then resigned, bought a rating and now flies for a lo-co company. Roughly speaking, right? You could also argue that with a godd and steady flying job (the previous) he could easily take on a bit more debt to finance his own rating and get a job with another company. But exactly what does this do for the newbies? 
Here`s a big fat HOO-YAH!!! for better T&Cs and quality of life
. Catans is speaking some hard truth here. Unfortunately, a lot of this falls on deaf ears seeking big cash and a glamorous lifestyle. The 80s are dead and gone, and so are the T&Cs of yesteryear thanks to bastard companies and recruitment agencies taking advantage of a constant overflow of unemployed pilots. You can easily convince yourself, and fellow pilots in the same situation (looking for a sim partner etc) that this is the only route to follow. Hell, the automation is there anyway, so good old fashioned piloting skills are not a priority for an employer, as long as they don`t have to pay for you to qualify to fly their airplanes. The quick route from flightschool into an airliner has become a norm in Europe especially, and all you hear these pilots talk about is money. Yes, money is important, but at the same time you need to have somewhat of a social life outside of where you work. Which way is this route taking us nowadays? How many are dead tired? How many friends still contact you just to hang out once in awhile. Not too many, since you`re always gone or trying to catch up on some zzzzzs. IMO, the only way to end this social dumping is to get legislation in place illegalizing it. Yes, unions do play a role, and yes, I do hope they do something about this. Crossunder likes to provoke
. Good on you! Throw some siht and get some in return, all in good fun. From what I recall h used to fly for a company who paid for his training etc etc, and then resigned, bought a rating and now flies for a lo-co company. Roughly speaking, right? You could also argue that with a godd and steady flying job (the previous) he could easily take on a bit more debt to finance his own rating and get a job with another company. But exactly what does this do for the newbies? Here`s a big fat HOO-YAH!!! for better T&Cs and quality of life
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Perspective
How about the guys that had to leave SAS, but were given a 737 ticket as they left? Are they whores? What if SAS had said: "here have xxxSEK buy your own rating"? Whores?
What about the new guys? Pay for a conventional CPL-IR/ME ATPL theory OR go for MPL with rating "built in"? Are the MPL guys whores?
How about paying for MCC/MCC+rating? Whores?
And as mentioned before the military guys, they have all proven "a cut better than the rest" But if they pay for a rating, will they be more of a whore than the guy that pay is own CPL etc. etc when in fact he/she has spent far less money on his/her training?
What about the new guys? Pay for a conventional CPL-IR/ME ATPL theory OR go for MPL with rating "built in"? Are the MPL guys whores?
How about paying for MCC/MCC+rating? Whores?
And as mentioned before the military guys, they have all proven "a cut better than the rest" But if they pay for a rating, will they be more of a whore than the guy that pay is own CPL etc. etc when in fact he/she has spent far less money on his/her training?
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I presume you were one of the ones who caved in and bought your way into the right seat of a 737 and trying to justify it. Maybe you did not cut the mustard with all the companies out there who provide you with the type rating, pay you full salary and per diems while in training.
Then Cathay Pacific offered me a job on the B777 (twice) in 2009. I declined, but am still in the hold pool. My little backup, you might say. The idea of moving to Hong Kong really didn't sit too well with the missus...
Chose to buy the rating and fly for DY instead. Fed up of commuting and did not particularly look forward to flying 8-9 sectors/day and being away from my family for 7-9 days in a row the rest of my life.
I never said I like how things have turned out in our business. And, as always, I like to provoke!
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Catan is correct in saying that the fact that pilots pay for their own type ratings makes the companies not have to pay for their pilots' training. And that sucks for us pilots.
But I have to agree with Crossunder. You cannot blame individuals for this. It is the way it has become, and it takes more than individual action to change it. I don't expect someone who has already paid many thousand dollars for his education to just sit there and do nothing in this type of market. If you know paying for your training will land you a job, I don't blame anyone for doing so. It is unfair and it sucks, but that's just how it is.
You can't blame the companies either. In this type of economy and abundance of pilots, of course you will pick the person who is already qualified (referring to having a type rating) instead of someone you will have to spend a ton of money to train. Sad but true, but that is how it works. It's all about making money.
We all know these are sad times for the aviation industry, and a sad time for us pilots. There are no jobs, and for a lot of people the salary is completely ridiculous - one of the reasons for this being the huge amount of jobless pilots. But you can't blame individuals. It is only if everyone joined together agreed that "I will not work until you pay me at least XXXX" or "I will not work unless you pay for my type rating" or whatever. But its not that easy....
But I have to agree with Crossunder. You cannot blame individuals for this. It is the way it has become, and it takes more than individual action to change it. I don't expect someone who has already paid many thousand dollars for his education to just sit there and do nothing in this type of market. If you know paying for your training will land you a job, I don't blame anyone for doing so. It is unfair and it sucks, but that's just how it is.
You can't blame the companies either. In this type of economy and abundance of pilots, of course you will pick the person who is already qualified (referring to having a type rating) instead of someone you will have to spend a ton of money to train. Sad but true, but that is how it works. It's all about making money.
We all know these are sad times for the aviation industry, and a sad time for us pilots. There are no jobs, and for a lot of people the salary is completely ridiculous - one of the reasons for this being the huge amount of jobless pilots. But you can't blame individuals. It is only if everyone joined together agreed that "I will not work until you pay me at least XXXX" or "I will not work unless you pay for my type rating" or whatever. But its not that easy....
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Minimumstick, you are wrong. The individual is EXACTLY who is to blame. Someone was the first to offer to pay for the rating and once the companies realized that some individuals were willing to pay for their training it was all over.
It only takes one to spoil the fun for all.
Catans
It only takes one to spoil the fun for all.
Catans
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Matriks: Hear, hear!
In the mean time, Catans can start calling those offered a job at DY and ask them nicely if they would be so kind as to not to accept the offer. 'Cause it's the right thing to do. "Hi honey - guess what? Just got a call from Catans. Turns out he doesn't want me to pay for that rating after all. So I turned them down! Let's sell the house, tell ours kids to wave goodbye to all their friends, and move to Qatar, 'cause they'll give me the A320 rating for free!!! Wohooo!"
While we're at it: Let's all join forces with other professionals: Private schools are now banned, firefighters are no longer allowed to pay for their own smoke diver course and truck driver certificate. Norwegian sailors should demand that Philippine sailors are paid the same as the norwegians, because today's regulations are unfair. The new MPL must be banned, and investing one's own money in anything must be made illegal. And so on.
In the mean time, Catans can start calling those offered a job at DY and ask them nicely if they would be so kind as to not to accept the offer. 'Cause it's the right thing to do. "Hi honey - guess what? Just got a call from Catans. Turns out he doesn't want me to pay for that rating after all. So I turned them down! Let's sell the house, tell ours kids to wave goodbye to all their friends, and move to Qatar, 'cause they'll give me the A320 rating for free!!! Wohooo!"
While we're at it: Let's all join forces with other professionals: Private schools are now banned, firefighters are no longer allowed to pay for their own smoke diver course and truck driver certificate. Norwegian sailors should demand that Philippine sailors are paid the same as the norwegians, because today's regulations are unfair. The new MPL must be banned, and investing one's own money in anything must be made illegal. And so on.