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And no doubt why maritime crews were armed with 9mm so we could force a show down when facing a Sverdlov cruiser.
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Sorry for intervening, but IMHO much depends on a kind of a mission. Recall U2 Francis Gary Powers: though he was shot down (being on a spy mission) during a very tense period (psychopathic Khruschev, and also KGB were very spiteful at that time), the end of the story was rather happy for him. It seemed he even did not suffer physically too much because shortly after his return to US he became a test pilot for Lockheed. So, he was right not use a poison he was supplied with.
I assume however that if it were a bomber mission, he would better swallow this medicine in the air. |
Originally Posted by Tiger_mate
(Post 9767139)
CG - It was accepted during WWII that aircrew, particulary bomber crews, were highly likely to end up dead or a POW. The Geneve Convention clearly states the treatment that is legal for Officers, SNCO, and other ranks. Work of a dangerous or objectionable nature is not permitted for any POW, but junior ranks can be made to work and SNCOs supervise only. Officers were too busy digging tunnels to supervise. It was felt by Govt that as bomber crews would probably be a POW through no fault of their own that they should be protected from subsequent employment shovelling **** in fields. This is why the minimum aircrew rank was Sgt as the war progressed. There was a time early in WWII that air gunners were junior ranks. The rank structure for none-commissioned aircrew was very different then than it is today.
Ref: Waterboarding. I saw a lot of things in SF training and Waterboarding was not one of them. The exercise administration with regarding to holding, questioning techniques, and exercise duration was controlled to the point of paranoia. That is not to say that in times gone by things may not have been different. PM Edward Heath publicly stated that the UK would not employ hoods as blindfolds...... There is truth in the fact that Iraqi officers void of rank were identified by their shoes, and by being invited to dine first. ... and that taking overt notice of your surroundings will get you unwanted attention; whereas head down deflated appearance = grey man. |
On the evasion exercise on my CSRO cse I had found a piece of paper with an emblem of four feathers on it. Thinking it might be useful for lighting a fire I kept it. I was 'picked up' before I could use it. All of my interrogaters spent a lot of time asking what it was etc, I could honestly answer 'I can't answer that question' as I did not have a clue as to what it represented. It turned out it was headed paper for a rambling club that had wandered over Dartmoor. Evaders another one up.
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PM Edward Heath publicly stated that the UK would not employ hoods as blindfolds..... |
The trick cyclists believe that the worst thing you can rob someone of is a sense of time - hence one of the first questions in debrief post ex is "What time do you think it is". Dislocation of expectation beforehand being manipulated by the aroma of fried bacon and a natural assumption to associate this with breakfast.
For myself: If I have no control over the events of my life, I do not give a flying **** what time it is. For others: I have debriefed 'runners' who have pretty much calculated through various means the exact time. _________________________________________________________ As a victim; an interrogator tried to exploit me having left my poor family without their husband/father. I often wonder if the smug grin in response was indicative of the b*tch having recently left me!! _________________________________________________________ The problem with such training in the past is that the world has got a lot more ugly since the Cold War; and the assumption of some level of fair play is no longer extant. The Geneve Convention is no longer worth the paper upon which it is written - and in many of the worlds conflicts, the mantra has got to be: 'Do not get caught under any circumstances' - regardless of what action is required to avoid capture. |
Tiger_Mate. Spot on with the time. I was in solitary when a clock began chiming. "Ah" thinks I, "a time check". I was OK until the clock struck eleven, twelve, thirteen!
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Originally Posted by Tiger_mate
(Post 9767733)
The Geneve Convention is no longer worth the paper upon which it is written -
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The trick cyclists believe that the worst thing you can rob someone of is a sense of time - hence one of the first questions in debrief post ex is "What time do you think it is". Dislocation of expectation beforehand being manipulated by the aroma of fried bacon and a natural assumption to associate this with breakfast. the mantra has got to be: 'Do not get caught under any circumstances' - regardless of what action is required to avoid capture. The only successful escape I am aware of on the CSRO course was a member of the one I was on. After capture we were taken to a collection point, bagged and not very well trussed. One member deduced he was beside a 3 tonner, took the risk and rolled under it. He then very quickly freed himself and dived over a dry stone wall on the other side and made like a very fast snake away from the action. When he judged he was far enough way he hid in the middle of a large bush. After a while the convoy of vehicles departed and on reaching a junction turned left. At that point he made off in the opposite direction. The point about tagging and counting is a valid one as no one noticed his absence until the handover at the interrogation centre. YS |
Security is not a dirty word Blackadder!
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...bring out the cocker spaniel...
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"So JTO, what 3 things will help you during interrogations?" [Hot lecture room at Mountbatten, still feeling the beer from the night before...]
"First has to be my detailed knowledge of tactics, systems and weapons with my fluent Russian as a close second. Third is hard to pick, but hoping for a glass of water as I will be talking a lot." I found the bag over the head to be quite soothing. Must be the chicken in me. |
I'm glad to say that having been an escapee during quite a number of E&E exercises, I never got caught once so never got to experience R to I.
("War story" warning). The closest I got to being caught was on a night E&E when two of us were "bounced" from behind by a party of searchers. We ran, vaulted a wire fence around the farmer's meadow field ahead of us only to see more search force running towards us on the other side. In the melee I quietly lay face down in the grass, just over the fence where we'd crossed. One of the search force came bounding over the fence behind me, trod squarely on my back without realising it was me, then ran off across the field, capturing my crew partner, who had tried to outrun them but hadn't got far. All this commotion attracted the large herd of cows in the field, who came right up to the fence near me and one started sniffing me. From the comments heard from some of the search force they weren't at all used to dealing with cattle and moved back. I lay still for a few minutes, carefully and quietly got to my feet and crouched, which set the cows trotting back across the field. I trotted off in the middle of the herd then just kept going. A while later I sussed out the RV, waited until I knew the exercise was coming to a close then walked quietly in. I never saw my crewman again until we returned to base. I heard later they had taken him away and tortured him by making him drink NAAFI tea without sugar. But I got hot chocolate! |
ShyTorque, Absolute result! Bet the hunter was heifer than you expected but pity about the udder guy; thinking whether to rescue him must have put you on the horns of a dilemma :}
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A long time ago, I was in the Wessex crew supporting a TA SAS escape and evasion exercise in Denmark.
We were told that the interrogators were all bank managers, as they were best placed to recognise false info being given by the suspect. PS None of the SAS was captured. We had to collect “volunteers” from the runners to be guinea pigs. |
Could tell more funnies but why instruct a possible enemy?
Don't forget that many of our present potential enemies are not as well experienced or informed as major powers. |
As pilots in N.I. we were issued with a Browning 9mm and two full mags plus a piece of french chalk. We were told that in the event of a forced landing or other unscheduled event we should use the chalk to draw a line around the aircraft. If anyone threatened us we were to inform them that if they crossed the chalk line we would shoot. Not a good idea !
The ultimate Escape/Evasion/Resistance to interrogation training by UK military entities is undergone by the Special Forces. I supported one of their exercises in the 80s and it was truly barbaric. Could say what I saw but then.......... NEO |
Originally Posted by Nigerian Expat Outlaw
(Post 9770303)
As pilots in N.I. we were issued with a Browning 9mm and two full mags plus a piece of french chalk. We were told that in the event of a forced landing or other unscheduled event we should use the chalk to draw a line around the aircraft. If anyone threatened us we were to inform them that if they crossed the chalk line we would shoot. Not a good idea !
CG |
Thanks everybody for your time and trouble. Your discretion is understood and appreciated. Just one last point please, where is or was Mountbatten?
Be lucky David |
Mountbatten was at Plymouth.
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