BEagle, seems like you forgot the strongest arguement for "stick and rudder" skills, the "Mighty Hunter". On-topping a bouy at 200 ft in a converted 50's airliner could be thought of as fairly demanding, tho' of course not as hard as finding excuses to reject the military accomodation in favour of a nice hotel down town, down route. :p

Sorry - my mistake! I forgot about you guys up there in Ice Station Kilo - who do indeed need traditional skills to fly the Nimrod.

Shall ignore the cr@p about hotels - except to point out that the behaviour of a certain aeroplane type's teenage NCOs in the Azores has caused lasting difficulties for everyone else at that hotel.....

[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

Beagle,
I am a bit confused. If you put all the VC10 cses end to end than surely rather than being the same length
- is it 7 months? -
you can afford to trim the length - perhaps crediting skills learnt last week on one cse to what you are learning this week. Or has someone taken the easy option an just lumped it all together?

mr ripley

mr ripley - the courses to which I referred have different skill set requirements. Furthermore, in the past some would have been given to experienced, not brand-new crews and no further hacking back of these courses can be achieved within prudent limits of safety.

The course length reflects the pessimistic maximum time that it might take to qualify a crew in all roles and on both types from scratch - and do remember that we have to accept MELIN graduates who are extremely inexperienced. As soon as usable role categories have been achieved, crew members will also fly unscreened on appropriate tasks when the opportunity arises. It isn't like an old-fashioned 'OCU' course, it is more like a such a course plus the first few weeks of sqn work-up training; there are no 'OCU trainers' and, as all overseas training has to be done 'on task' it takes much longer even though it is cheaper.

[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

BEagle...serious about your comment of only using UASs for air experience? Surely if this was the then case the guys who got 100 hrs pre EFT would cr@p all over the ab initios who didn't attend a UAS. Guess who would make up the bulk of MElIN studes purely due to an hours disadvantage?!

As for the FJ x-over bit...I understand the first three studes do have more than EFT experience (208 sqn, BFJT and Puma) but apparently are guinea pigs for the new course. Word is that if successful it will be open to all multi studes in the future (if the RAF stick with it.)

Not that serious - merely floating an idea. But it would mean giving them far, far less than 100 hours - perhaps 15 per annum if the bean counters really wanted to save money? Then give more UASs a 'Regional EFTS' role for DEs and ditch JEFTS?

BEags, but would it save that much money?

You would be paying them all as Fg Offs and surely getting them all through the system in a reasonable period of time - say 6 months - instead of stretched over three years would mean massive restructuring (and holding for the studes!)

You would also still need to retain the entire infrastructure to accommodate the guys just having air experience. Seems to me you're advocating a return to the days of the UAS flying club and a Cranwell flying academy! Progress?

Not having a pop at all just can't see it working very well. And, how would the civvie contractors and MFTS fit into all this...?!!

I admit to being a bit of a Devil's advocate over this - personally I'd just like to see the end of streaming assessment for students trying to attend full time university academic study courses. I view it as totally unreasonable pressure on these students.

But a return to RAFC as The Royal Air Force College giving a 3 year academic, EFTS and BFTS course together with all appropriate military education would be even better. For those still wishing to join after university, the UAS would merely provide 'some' flying during their university time - but with no pretence towards assessment/streaming - and they would join their RAFC colleagues at a suitable point to complete EFTS on the T67M260 and BFTS on the Tucano (perhaps the ex-UAS at Linton if Cranwell couldn't cope with the number - and CFS should move to Linton as well?). All pilots would complete the same BFTS course, then, after wings and streaming, FJ to Valley on the Hawk, ME to the USA on the Jayhawk and RW to Shawbury. Achieve 60 IPS annually (4 courses of 15-20), forget MFTS. If there are insufficient Tucanos to give all piots a full BFTS course, stream at some stage during the BFTS course to send the RW to Shawbury and the ME to complete training on the Texan II, then wings and the Jayhawk.

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

For all those debating the pro's and con's of the various forms of training, the debate seems to be over for those in charge of the decision making.
Have been reliably informed that the military contract will start with Oxford next week. Be this the good, bad or ugly option only time will tell. :) :( :confused:
with my knowledge of Oxford all I can say is 'Good Luck' the poor guinea pigs.

[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: Fogbound ]

Surely if the RAF deems that multi training can be adequately carried out by civilians on decrepped (sp?) old Piper Senecas, why not just buy a few of them and base them from Cranwell? They can't be that expensive in comparison to the price OATS demands for a course. Stick some roundels on them and hey presto, RAF pilot training in the 21st Century!

Interesting to see so many people know Oxford so well - WWW you are bang on the money about the standard of management. Ex-forces or not, they have been moulded the Oxford way now.

Really don't think the RAF will put up with all the c**p dealt out by bungling managers, inept flight scheduling or poor availability of servicable aircraft, regardless of price (naive or what!). Can't comment on the validity of using Senecas or civvie procedures for training, but any outfit that uses the hottest city outside the middle east for a fair weather base, using temperature-limited aircraft, can't be relied on to make sound judgements on such deep and technical matters!

For my money, I hope the RAF steers well clear and keeps the training where it belongs - in house. :mad:

bk
Despite your hopes the first contingent started on the Senecas at Kidlington this week after a groundschool period at Cranwell. Will be interesting to see how they do and what the RAF thinks of the course.

Regards!

First report from horses mouth!

Just a quick comparison of civvie/mil organisational styles.

3 guinea pigs arrive at Cranwell 1 day pre-groundschool. Told will be doing course at Ox post shortened groundschool. B*ggered about in terms of costs moving to Cranwell and subsequently back to Brize. Started at Oxford Monday just gone. Moved out of Brize Tues due to 'shortage of accommodation'. Studes now living in Dalton Barracks. TGDA still to decide if this is acceptable or whether to use B&B's. (Don't lose sight of that fact this is a cost cutting exercise).

Not good so far...

Studes arrive at Oxford Mon morning to be greeted by gate blokey knowing who they were and where they had to go. Met by Chief Instructor and given outline of course. In sim on day one, told they start flying tomorrow!

Now, in my opinion, I wouldn't care what I was flying, arriving somewhere to see that they've thought about what's going on and what's happening to you before the course starts must be a great relief! In comparison to the RAFs Exercise RUNNING GOAT F**** that it seems to be this is surely a good sign!

Discuss...

If they are in Dalton Barracks then they are just around the corner from me !!

Welcome to the flea on a goats testicle that is Abingdon chaps.

Good Luck with the course and your future careers. :cool:

Spoke to one of them yesterday, and she has already flown three times! Not bad at all considering the first few weeks of every RAF course are taken up with filling out needless admin paperwork, endless briefings and general triv.
Aircraft not exceptional but continuity etc looking good. And the opportunity is there to get certain civvie qualifications...why miss the opportunity?!
:cool:

My point exactly...

(Better Livin... You could've been on my JEFTS groundschool. Are you TS? Canada's the right place now!)

Edited for curiosity.

[ 08 November 2001: Message edited by: Gravity Selected ]

GS
Nope, my initials are MS! When did you do JEFTS Grindschool?

Better Livin, when do you and your partner in crime return to the UK? Anyone I know that has ended up in the civvy METS? I am soon to return to OASC...life is strange indeed!

Hope they are able to complete the course,just heard that they have gone into
administration or receivership at Oxford.

Anyone worried by the last post should go to Wannabes where the OAT Business Manager has personally rebutted this rumour. Careless words cost lives.