The real problem is that civil servants within the MOD have become an extension of the current party.

Spin is alive and well in MOD MB, as is the repeated mantra of denials regarding anything negative.

Doubleplusungood.

It must be said that not all Civil Servants lie when instructed to do so, but I acknowledge it is becoming increasingly common - so much so that even the CS unions will not take up cudgels in support of staff placed in this position. Contrast that with their unstinting support for those committing less serious offences, like fraud. (In fact, one could argue fraud is no longer an offence, given a long series of rulings on the subject by, surprise surprise, Ministers).

The trouble is, and I hope fellow CS read this, these political masters (both politicians and senior Civil Service) won't always be there to help you. Eventually, you will be isolated, and the record will show YOUR name at the bottom of the correspondence, or briefing. It's called maladministration, and remains a dismissible offence. The tide will turn.

"The real problem is that civil servants within the MOD have become an extension of the current party."

I call BS on that one - the MOD CS is even more militant right wing than most of the armed forces. I recall standing in a room the day after the last election watching a lot of CS cheering every Tory gain announced.

Just because some of them are hairy and left wing sandal wearers doesn't mean we all are!

I think you miss the point JimLad.

CS exist to serve the taxpayer, and in the case of the MOD, the interests of those who put their life on the line day after day, away from the comfort of an office.

They should not be cheering for either side, they should be getting on with what needs to be done.

Where weakness exists, it should be augmented, where holes are found, they should be filled. Simply denying there is a problem, when it is widely accepted one does exist merely identifies them as stooges of a failing political class, whatever the colour.

MGD - no one I know denies there is a major problem in defence right now - but I think you dramatically overestimate the influence the average CS actually has. The majority of CS are admin officials - people who exist to do the crud that needs to be done by someone to keep HM Forces running, and they really don't have any influence at all.

The number of CS in positions of real power is very low, as unsurprisingly all the main posts relating to operations and decision making seem to be occupied by HM Forces (e.g. all decisions on cuts are made and taken by military personnel). The only really dangerous ones aren't actually CS, but are the Ministers Political Advisors (not POLADS), who provide the political spin to the Ministers, and who really don't have a clue about defence. Thankfully these apparatchiks are Labour party hacks and not CS.

The problem we have, and by this i mean HM Forces and MOD CS is that we have a public 'can do atttitude', and we don't like to admit that we can't do something. We all privately know that Defence is utterly shagged and financially broken, but no one at a level that matters will admit so openly - I think its because we're too proud to admit something is wrong.

Arrrr JimLad

Nail, Head, Hit - rearrange etc

You know, once I would have been really vexed about stories such as N Korea chucking up their TV satellite / Ballistic missile * (delete as appropriate). No longer. There's zip that we (UK plc) can do about it. We should recognise that, in future, we'll be mere bystanders in these sort of issues, watching while the US and China and potentially Russia (if it can get its military act together) engage in global sumo wrestling.

We should be honest with ourselves, and the public, and accept that we have now joined the group of euro nations who possess armed forces for absolutely no apparent reason. Despite a bold post cold war review (SDR + Ch11)telling us what HM Armed Forces would be scaled for in the brave new world, all the positive spin has not materialised into actuality. We are neither financed nor resourced for today's adventures and are unlikely ever to be so.

Why don't we just admit we can't do it and cut our losses. All we really need is a small Home Guard for MACP, a few Guardsmen to march up and down outside important places, a couple of boats and aircraft to keep immigrants out of Calais and ensure our fishermen aren't infringing the rights of other nations to hoover up our haddock and cod and er, thats about it. Jobsa goodun

Voila, you shave billions off your budget, nobody hates us anymore and we can all live happily ever after :D I can't see any problems with this and I commend it to the next administration.

We may of course have to give up our place on the UNSC Big 5 as er, we won't be very big anymore, but hey, I'm sure somebody will be pleased to take it off our hands, we could auction it to the highest bidder. I'm guessing Tel Aviv or Pyongyang might be interested.

Well thats that little problem sorted out. Back to the Merlot. :ok: