Especially as the people who swore an oath of allegiance to the Queen are too busy on a fools errand to back Her Majesty up.:rolleyes:

Lets all mutiny at that useless tosspot in no 10 before he runs away and lets Dr Doom take over, all those in favour........

Fair enough, Mr Stormrider, you have your little vote but don't forget that Mr Blair, who you and many others on this thread dish out such (IMHO) juvenile abuse to, was democratically elected under the British system so get over and on with it.

By all means have your own opinions of the man and party but until the next election, tough!

Incidentally I don't like the bloke either.

In the late 70's I regularly saw a father and son team driving in to work together at Middle Wallop. Father was a major, son was a sergeant (Brian Mills). Out of the car, hats on, face each other across the roof, salute and off to work. Always made me smile.

And isn't that the point - saluting is a courtesy, and let us call them compliments rather than marks of respect. Whatever one may personally think of the individual, it is discourteous to withold a salute as it is to fail to return one. One thing that sets the Services apart is that we retain (in the face of cuts and mismanagement) both professionalism and politeness.

I can show respect for uncased colours, funeral corteges and
the national anthems of foreign states, but if I really want to show my contempt for poloticians and undeserving senior officers, then my salute must be especially crisp.

By all means salute the Prime Minister, but address him as Mr Blair, not, as he would wish, Tony, or Sir.

Maufe,

The key word here is British System.

First only 61% of the electorate bothered to vote.

Of the electorate, 53% were in seats won by Labour and 33% were in seats won by Conservative.

In 2005 33.24% voted Con and 22.64% voted Liberal with a total of 63.8% not voting Labour.

Queen's Regulations
 

Instructions from the boss.....so pay attention.
"The personal salute, in addition to being a mark of respect, is an act of courtesy and good manners. It is never wrong to salute even if subsequently the person saluting another discovers that person is not entitled to be saluted."
Furthermore:
"An Officer of Her Majesty's diplomatic or other non-military service is entitled to the honours appertaining to his office"
So, regardless of one's views, the PM is entitled to a salute, even in common courtesy

PC
 

The PM is one of HM The Queen's Privy Counsellors. Salutes are therefore entirely in order as the saluter would be symbolically paying complements and showing loyalty to HM The Queen rather than the individual.

Quoting Fawlkes:
"By all means salute the Prime Minister, but address him as Mr Blair, not, as he would wish, Tony, or Sir."


Sorry chap, but that's incorrect. And what "he wishes" doesn't come into it. There are rules, and they are very simple:

1: He IS to be saluted. He is the appointed head of Her Majesty's Government, so recieves a salute whether you happen to like him or not. This is equally applicable to all members of the Cabinet. (But not to the opposition).
2: He is addressed as "Prime Minister" in the first instance, "Sir" in any following converation. All other cabinet ministers are addressed similarly as "Minister" then "Sir".
3: All of this applies notwithstanding your own personal feelings on matters political.. It's in the rules, it's not left down to your own whims on whether you like someone or not. After all, do you only salute senior Officers that you like personally, or respect?

(And in response to the original question):
4: The nice young lady at Northolt who saluted the PM was no doubt the duty Protocol Officer or Movements Officer. It is common courtesy to have the Station Commander or a nominated deputy present at all movements involving a VVIP at an RAF airfield. Regardless of who's operating the flight.

Has no-one here ever been involved in a VIP visit to their station? The 5 pages of rubbish so far on this subject would seem to indicate so.

You are of course correct, Wader, that's why I avoided using the word 'majority'.

However, that's the system we use in this country - have you got any ideas for a better one?

Yes - do away with the one person one vote system. Have differing numbers of votes allotted in accordance with certain criteria - take them away from criminals and certain other categories eg people whose greatgrandparents were not borne here. Yes ,I know, there would still be people getting around the system but, at least, it's a start towards something fairer.

Doing away with proportional representation would be a better start

We don't have proportional representation!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe a bit off-thread, but don't you also have to salute a VC holder, regardless of the holder's rank?

Nope, although I would have no problem doing so. It is not required by QRs or the Warrant. I think you may be confusing this custom with the Americans saluting holders of the Congressional Medal of Honor. VC holders do get a pension of £1300 per annum

BTW I saluted an Army Captain a few weeks ago as was riding past on a bike. Bless him, he actually sat up with arms straight to return the compliment.

When I was at Northolt we had a "book o'rools" that said who was entitled to what and when. As thick as QRs it was. We also had a Staish who spent nearly all his duty hours over on Southside, saluting visitors and engaging them in idle chat, while OC Operations ran the station for him.

Prime Ministers and Ministers were definitley salutable people, along with senior civil serpents (i.e. those who arrived in chauffeur driven government limo's), Commonwealth High Commissioners and foreign ambassadors on official duty and suchlike. Its hard to tell when a foreign ambassador is on official duty ( except the Aussie High Commissioner. He always shaved, and wore shoes and a shirt when he was "official" )

PapaJuiette, Yes, great idea. However no taxation without representation so the tax burden would increase for all of you and I would welcome the tax relief entailed.

My mother was born in India, my grandfather in Ireland, and my great-grandparents too and that over 150 years ago.

Be real.

Peace be with you.

PapaJuliette wrote:

As borne means carried or supported, I fail to understand why only those non-criminals whose great grandparents were immigrants or imported slaves should be allowed to vote in your great scheme. What about us poor souls whose grandparents happened to be indigenous? As slavery was abolished in the empire 200 years ago, your electorate would be exceedingly small and shrinking rapidly.

Either that or your intellect and/or literacy level is/are commensurate with your apparent grasp of modern constitutional democracy.

Forelock tugging and suchlike for Englishmen . . .
 

I'm a dirty foreigner, despite my great grandparents, grandparents and parents being born and bred in England. I was born in South Africa while my father served King and Country in the Royal Navy at the naval base in Simonstown.

Spike Milligan was declared to be either Irish or Pakistani by the Home Office. Either way, because South Africa and Ireland are non-Commonwealth countries and at the time Pakistan's membership was under suspension, neither of us was allowed to vote in a British election or could be issued with a British passport. I had already been serving in the Royal Air Force for five years when I discovered this.

After convincing the Secretary of State for Home Affairs that I was the legitimate son of an Englishman who was himself the legitimate son of an Englishman, the Secretary of State exercised his prerogative and declared that I could be classified as "British by Descent". This entitiled me to a British Passport and the right to vote, although my children would not automatically acquire British citizenship unless they were born in UK.

Since I handed in my beret and S.D. cap I am no longer able to salute, but I'm quite happy to tug my civilian forelock to both the Secretary of State for Home Affairs and his boss. The likes of I are beholden to the likes of 'e and it wouldn't do to upset a chap who could have you cast out into Statelessness with a nod of his head, now would it? ;)

I may be wrong ( i often am) but there is no saluting of the VC but i believe the etiquette is that if a VC holder enters a room then all should stand regardless of rank. this is out of respect for the VC holder.
when you read a lot of citations for the VC then maybe they should be accorded the privelage of a salute, again it is not wrong to salute in these situations if your personal view point merits such action.

"BTW I saluted an Army Captain a few weeks ago as was riding past on a bike. Bless him, he actually sat up with arms straight to return the compliment."


I remember a senior CPO when he was riding a bike saluting my Dad in exactly the same way, stiff arms and eyes right!

When only a humble deckie on a yacht, after being invited on board one of HM ships by a friend I was at school with, saluting me as I left.

Maufe asked, Is there a better system - ... than one person one vote etc?

How about abolishing political parties as an entity?

At a stroke you would avoid the need to fund party machines.
You would avoid the tactical voting.
You could vote for the man you think will represent the constituency best rather than against him because you don't want his party elected.

When the best are elected the ones who can secure the greatest support amongst those elected is asked to form a Government. The runner up becomes deputy.

The early US Presidential elections had the opposing candidate appointed as Vice President. That was certainly interesting and certainly fully representational.

We used to salute Winny and he wasn't even pm by then.

Ah, good point. Notwithstanding his prime ministerial rank or time in the Admiralty, he was a retired Lt Col (CO of 6 RSF in 1916 after his resignation from the Government after The Dardanelles). While not 'required', saluting a retired senior officer is an appropriate mark of respect. Now if we ever again have a Prime Minister who has served...

never mind all this old tosh!

Can one assume that the RAF officer (DAMO?) in question is only employed to salute dignitaries!!!!????

In this age of defence cuts, shurely shum mishtake......

Yes wotsit, and the padre only works on a Sunday...

As Officer of the Day (in RN establishments) or Orderly Officer (for the RAF) this is one of the expected duties which pull you away from your Sqn/desk etc. Saluting VIPs is all part and parcel of this and it's usually when you don't do it that its picked up on, not when you do!:hmm:

No, you misunderstood me!

Is this officer solely employed to salute people? ie. he/she doesnt have a desk to be pulled away from....

Cant believe we would waste a military salary (presumably quite well paid) just on this????

Yes wotsit he is the Saluting Officer. After IOT he moves to professional training which consists of learning how to salute various dignitaries and the subtle differences required when saluting foreign Officers and dignitaries. As we are now in the times of being tri-service so is the course they do at Shrivenham.

Man, glad I didnt join up, I would have been gutted to have gone through all that officer training to wind up as some glorified mobile saluting unit. Surely some scientist could invent some kind of automated saluting device to undertake this arduous task?

Makes you wonder ........

WHAT IS THE WORST JOB IN THE RAF??????

WHAT IS THE WORST JOB IN THE RAF??????

OIC Daft Question-answering?

CG

I recall seeing a photo of Mrs Thatcher, when she was PM, in RAF uniform and wearing the rank of Group Captain - does the PM automatically become an honourary member of the RAF in that rank?

SM

Respect. Probably one of the biggest fishes landed this year :D :D

Hi again

Iv just bin thinking about going to the AFCO, but rather than make myself look silly in front of the staff I was wondering:

WHat grades do you need to join the RAF as a saluting officer. Im a really keen ATC cadet and reckon that the job could be pretty cool, getting to meet all them cool people like the Prime minister and the chancellor. My CO reckons I could make Cpl soon so im used to leading bodies of troops. My sarge reckons im the best Cpl he has seen and he should know cos hes 17.

I think being a pilot is a bit poncy and a little on the homoerotic side. Saluting officer is the life for me :)

Do I need a degree to do this and if so, what would be the best degree to do???

Good news wotsit. You can combine being a Pilot and saluting at the same time. You see pilots do a course called ISS which stands for Individual Saluting Studies. This course, providing they pass, enables them to be called upon at short notice to stand in for the DAMO (Duty Appendage Moving Officer) if he or she is on leave/OOA or on another course. The course is run and administered from Shrivenham and you are given an ISS tutor who will see you through and mark your coursework. There is of course an exam both written and practical at the end.

Hitler was also democratically elected, it didn't stop him from being a bad egg.
These are all fair points...normally. However, when I joined up, the illegal, deceit-shrouded and lunatic invasion of Iraq was not even a twinkle in the deranged staring eye. Add to that the remarkable discourtesy Bliar has shown with regard to tradition, whether it is the refusal of his missus to curtsey to Her Majesty or the tearing-up and flouting of constitutional safeguards.
The Commission is addressed to the "trusty and well-beloved" recipient and signed by the Sovereign. The key word is "trusty". Although the Sovereign is constitutionally responsible for appointing ministers, in a modern democracy it would be impossible to remove an errant minister. Bliar was entrusted with sweeping prerogative powers and has abused them extensively, to the detriment of this nation and world security. The supposedly sacred bond of trust has been shattered. I came to this conclusion in 2003 - during the Hutton inquiry - and resigned, quietly and without fuss.
I suspect that most of those in uniform would like to give Bliar two fingers but (in the unlikely event of being in this position) would feel it to be unwise, perhaps even inappropriate (I have some admiration for those who can remain so dispassionate despite what has occurred) and I suspect those who feel as strongly as I do have voted with their feet already.

Il Duce You stupid Woman (well he never did say stupid man) how could you think she was an honourary member of the RAF. She was a WOMAN. She was obviously at risk of getting a chill. Clearly the gallant Group Captain lent her his coat.
:)

The RAF Northolt Station Commander is employed for that purpose, while the OC Operations runs the station. Its a bit like a Royal Navy ship, where the Captain is a figure head and a First Lieutenant does all the proper work while the POs run the ship.

The fact that Groupie failed to show up and Mr. Blair was met by the Duty Saluter was possibly a subliminal message?

Pontius N, I bow to your superior intelligence. Of course, at that time, it would have been the WRAF. This particular photo was of the formal type - as one would see a senior officer sit behind a desk, pen poised, ready to make important decisions, smiling that knowing smile ("I'm in charge, you can relax now").

Il Duce, touche :)

Mind you I got to shake Ted Heath's hand.