SASLESS

Please don't me laugh "combat SAR" the only way we could mount a mission in a hostile area is to ask uncle Sam for a hand,or we would be blown out of the sky. The Yanks have it down to a fine art, we can only play at it, like most things nowadays ;)

vechook - funnily enough, Sunday night in N Yorkshire!

Droopy stop- the clue in the overland capability is in the title, Maritime Coastguard Agency - why will they ever fund an overland capability?

I loved reading this thread, it's good to see all the old arguments dug up for an airing. The sad fact is, it's not if, it's when will SAR in the UK go civi. In the meantime we'll do our jobs and take the shilling (where ever that comes from).

So, in order to fly over land at night you MUST have NVG ?

s'funny. I was doing it for years without any Goggs.

That doesn't get away from the fact that there isnt a requirement to fly at night on Goggs.

Mate,

there never used to a height hold for hovering over water at night, but now there is.

I think you'll find it's called progress.

Just 'cos that's the way we used to do it - doesn't make it right.

Chaps, first post ever so here goes - be kind! You all make valid points in isolation. RAF SAR is no better than RN, Military is no better than Civil. We all just do it differently. What we need is best practice from all to get the SAR Force of the future. Now that might well include civilian aircraft from a reputable companybut military registered. Then you can take the best from the civilian world - they DO keep the aircraft more serviceable then military engineers because they do it differently. You can still use NVG becase now you are in a military registered ac - lets face it, its what the best dressed person wears at night these days.

Vechookattackome you have stated why do you need NVG? You did it without for many years? Are you driving the same car you drove then? No Ford Cortina in the car park then? Why, because things got better.

Crab, same applies to us me old, we have to move with the times and adapt. Learn fast!

Lights blue touch paper .........

Vec - I used to fly at night without goggles - above 500' with any letdown being a very interesting procedure without nightsun or similar bright light source. Now, with goggles, it is just like day flying except the world is green and you have a limited field of view. It is so much safer, quicker and easier flying on NVG which is why we do it, not only for pure overland stuff but for cliff letdowns and for collision avoidance over the sea at night - it's just better! Any crew going to a winching situation overland at night is going to need goggles to get there safely and expeditiously, even if they do the winching itself on white light.

SARREMF - I know, flexibility...it's the key to something or other...

Hey - Im Goggs biggest fan and totally agree with you that they make a world of difference (although your comment that using Goggs makes it flying like day would receive a short rebuke from the old man at CAM who used to reiterate that the only thing that made the night look like day was the sun).

But at the end of the day SAR crews indeed a lot of helicopter crews all around the world are flying aroud at night conventionally and doing it very safely.

Crab,

So who pays for all the overland work done by the CG machines at the moment?

Droopystop,
I think that the CG (and the RN for that matter) present a bill to the tasking authority for any overland jobs that they do. The ARCC very quickly passed the bill for, dare I say it, Boscastle up the chain to some bean counter in government. I'm sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong.

If, like the RN the RAF sent bills for servcies provided, how much would mil SAR cost then? Apples and apples......

Crab and SARREMF - good points indeed

How many helicopter pilots are flying around below 500ft agl in the mountains of Scotland in winter without NVG and having to plan and make an approach to an unlit, unapproved landing site? NVG are the thing of today and tomorrow and for low-level ops which SAR has to be (there are not many people requiring rescue above the MSA) NVG make the job a whole lot safer and give the casualty a much better chance of rescue and therefore survival.

Droopy - what overland work? Other than flying a casualty to an inland hospital?

Crab

The Scottish HMCG aircraft do venture into the hills particularly the Stornoway cab. The Scottish Air Ambulances also provide cover in the mountains for non-winching jobs.

Freeride, do both those operations work at night in the hills?

Night mountain SAR work needs googles. What used to be done without them is no where near what is done now with them...

That said I can't see any reason why civilians can't be taught to use them. But it would be a large investement for any company who wished to carry out SAR "at a profit," to teach their people to use them.

That doesnt get away from the fact that NVG for civilian SAR units is not a requirement. Its not part of the contract and therefore will not be provided by the company (why should they, after all).

It will only become necessary when the Govt write a statement of requirement into the contract and therefore make it a requirement that the company deliver.

Good morning. You are through to McRescue, the UK's premier privatised search and rescue systems solutions company. I'm sorry, all our operators are busy at the moment. Please try again later....

But remember to have your wallet with you, for when the winchman produces the EFTPOS terminal and asks "Do you know your PIN?"

It seems that the majority of you have little or no experience of military SAR supported by civilian engineers.

In the long run, it won't be a fight about who will do what job with what kit and who will run it with who etc etc.

I will raise the following points.

1. CG will remain CG who will continue to operate within their own remit.

2. Military SAR will continue with Mil Aircrew and Rearcrew with engineering support functions performed by civilian groundstaff.

3. It has already been happening for the last 2 years. Mil SAR supported by Civ engineering.

4. It works better than you may think.

5.Compare...... 5 aircraft wth 70 mil engineers and a 35% serviceability rate to 4 aircraft with 10 civ engineers and a 95% serviceability rate.


6. You hold the purse strings, you choose.

.....but with a remit to only conduct Military SAR.

vecvechookattack, are you on the same planet as the rest of us?

Having sampled a few of your posts now I guess not. Wierd MF.