Thread drift, I know, but the 1914 assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand by a student in his early '20s triggered the First World War.

Surely it is not hate? It is judgemental, yes, a bit OTT, yes, but hate is very different.
As a published military historian I do find your explanation of the causes of the Great War very much at odds with the evidence.

No they don't get a shock, in my experience, as they tend to know know exactly what they're joining to do. The adverts are aimed more at the 'gate-keepers'.

I think if you're going to ask someone to put their life on the line, their opinion matters.

My experience is those 20 year olds to whom you refer (at least those who were RAF Regiment officers and gunners) make exceptionally good fighters and many of them are a much better fit than previous generations for modern warfighting with all its current complexity. They're no less willing to go in harm's way than their predecessors and, from what I've seen, would prefer to be doing that and earning the medals that go with it than lurking on Tik Tok, PPrune, or whatever.

Rheinstorff, what are the gatekeepers? Do you mean parents? Please explain.

It's recruiter language, which I don't pretend to fully understand, but typically it refers to the parents or other people with significant influence over potential recruits' career choices, eg, teachers or lecturers.

There is the difference in a nutshell. When I joined up it was my decision. As I was under aged when I applied, I was obliged to get parental permission but my enlistment was entirely my decision and responsibility. Today the cult of the influencer means that other people are responsible it seems.

You're kind of proving the value of convincing the gatekeepers that joining the UKAFs is a good idea here though.

Your "gatekeepers" (and mine) agreed that joining was a good choice and therefore gave permission. If they thought the armed forces was a bad option they may not have. Equally if someone is on the fence and choose to seek advice from someone they respect (parent, community leader, religious propaganda pusher, teacher) we want them to encourage people to join up as well. If they all say joining up is a sh1t idea, it isn't going to help people decide what to do is it?

The difference, downsizer is that armed forces recruitment was aimed at individuals, not their parents, friends, families or teachers. Have a look at the ad for the Australian Navy in the 80s. The theme was " you'll be wet you'll be homesick and frightened, but the pride of the fleet will be you. ". It's on the tube. They were booked solid for years.

I don't think the adverts are aimed at gatekeepers of communities per se, but if there is a benefit then great.

When I took a posting into recruiting one of the first things that I was told on the course is that the adverts that you liked as an 18 year old, aren't going to be the adverts that 18 year olds like today, 25 years later! And its true, they weren't trying to recruit me, I was already 20 odd years deep by that point.

Absolutely not downsizer. Imagine being promised you'll be wet, homesick and frightened today. Bullying, no duty of care. Appealing to toxic masculinity. Challenging, but reassuring that people are valued. Different kind of kids these days.

I don't really see why. If you look at thngs objectively, standards have always been set at an arbitrary level so that most men can pass them. How is that not discrimination? The fact that the average man can probably lift more weight than the average woman is not a valid reason to rig the game

Well, BP, I for one would love my grandchildren to experience what a I did when I joined Dartmouth straight from school in 1966. The camaraderie and esprit de corps was exceptional, we had an aim and elders to help us achieve it and life was hard but very good. (Standfast the odd punishment run down to Sandquay and back!)

And yes, we had a course mate who was of Caribbean extraction but his ethnicity was never even mentioned - he was just Geoff, another makie-learnie pilot, getting on with the business of his chosen profession. The only trouble that we ever had was from the local lads, whose girlfriends were always keen to come to the Summer Ball!

The gentlemen who signed that letter have all had successful careers leading men and women of all ethnicities in some very difficult circumstances and are in a very good position to see what is happening to our services today. What we need now is warriors who can be inspired to achieve great things in dire circumstances. War does not discriminate, nor should we - but we need the very best recruits we can get, not those we need to “fill a quota”.


Mog

Wrong. My granddaughter Rockape struggled with the massive deadlft block of concrete. Reason for pass/fail test?
Ability to lift/move a body, dead or alive, willing or unwilling. A weight a fair number men (me) could not tackle. Defined task, pass/fail, zero discrimination, zero latitude for error.
exactly what women want, equality.
Simples.

Ask Hampshire Police! They had a gender fair test for dog handlers and fell foul of exactly that. In essence a male candidate passed the female standard but failed the male one . The tribunal ruled he was a victim of discrimination. Actually I was wrong in my post it is direct discrimination. The important point was that the role orientated test was a legitimate means to an end.

Speaking personally from my experiences and observations, the offer of camaraderie and espirit de corps is not what it once was, perhaps even as little as 10/15 years ago.
The proliferation of single man rooms. Everyone owning a car, therefore ghost camps at weekends/block leave. Exercises having very little flex built into them for AT/boozing.
I'd say the only chance you have of getting the old experience is if you are posted abroad/on ship or tour these days.

It's funny reading the comments from old people regarding the current 20 year olds. It's as if the generation that preceeded the oldies didn't say the same things about them

And we need to pay the rate [Rate?] for the job: handsomely. Very many military roles are more demanding than driving a train. QED.

Prove it please. With examples and sources.

Look I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I think it's pretty well known that every generation says this about the next generation. They even make country songs about it

and seeing as you asked, here are some quotes:

You can find more and the attributions here



Having said that, I doubt that this current young generation will be able to insult their replacements anywhere near as well as we and our forefathers did :}​​​​​​​