One might also reasonably ask what have Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania ever done for NATO except border Russia? I'm not the one asking that, before you jump down my throat again, but it is a valid question. NATO has spent millions on military infrastructure in the Baltic States and provides its primary means of air defence. Would those countries ever be able to afford their own jet fighters? Like Ireland, of course not, but unlike Ireland they border Russia, and are seen to be worthy of the money.

If Ireland joined NATO and requested that jet fighters from other members be based at Baldonnel as Russian aircraft infringe its airspace along its Atlantic seaboard, what would be the difference? Or would that be freeloading because it is a long way from Russia?

The Republic chooses not to have an air defence force for political not economic reasons, this is the country with the second or third highest per capita GDP in the world (depending on source) but its politicians chose to use that GDP to enrich the shareholders of multinationals. They spend c.0.25% of GDP on defence and expect 63% of its population to pay €50+ to visit a GP (unlike £0 for its neighbour). At some point these corporations may wake up to the fact they are in a country that can't protect the cables they rely on. Regarding air defence, as long as the government is in the hands of politicians who are prepared to rely on and facilitate AD by their neighbour there is no need for indigenous FJ capability, get a party in power that would have no truck with RAF overflights or RN ships then there might be some tough conversations with Washington.

The Baltic States have a combined population smaller than Ireland's, GDPs per head of c0.25% of the Republic's and contribute between c.2.25% and 2.75% of that GDP to defence. In the field of Air Defence they choose to spend it on radar and limited SAM capability.

P.S. Costa Rica and Panama have military forces, they just choose to call them something else.

This from the Irish Times last year suggests that Sinn Fein would improve the defence forces of the Republic but (perhaps) stop RAF over flights - we shall see.............................

Pat Leahy
Mon May 8 2023 - 19:00

Sinn Féin has said it needs more information about the secret defence arrangement successive governments have operated with the British air force before it decides whether or not it would scrap the agreement if in government.

The party’s foreign affairs spokesman, Matt Carthy, said news of the arrangement, reported in The Irish Times, “simply further exposes the abysmal failure of successive Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil governments to invest in our Defence Forces and to ensure that, as an independent, neutral state, we can monitor and defend our airspace and our seas”.

Mr Carthy said that he has “sought a briefing from the Department of Defence on this matter, so as to clarify the legal and constitutional matters that have arisen from today’s report” but he also urged Tánaiste Micheál Martin to make a public statement on the issue.

Costa Rica has security forces (police) for internal security.
I didn't mention Panama.
Yes, you can argue that they are splitting hairs, but they have been consistent.
That's a lot of talk, aimed at other political parties, until and unless they can influence a change.

Bordering Russia gives them significant strategic value to NATO to the benefit of the whole alliance. Estonia's current spend on defence is 3.2% , Lithuania 2.5%, Latvia 2.25% so , when combined with direct aid to Ukraine ( Estonia 1.26%, Latvia 1.09%, Lithuania 0.95% ) they are making very significant efforts..For comparison Ireland has donated 0.02%* It insults the Baltic states to bracket them with Ireland.. 0.02% is shamefully low when you consider that as a neutral state they should support the idea of national sovereignty and be willing to give more than a derisory amount in humanitarian aid.to a state defending itself against a barbaric aggressor. I wonder if RTE carried any news about the massacres and torture of civilians in Bucha ?

No difference unless Ireland continued to believe and protest that 0.2% GDP for defence was a fair contribution and others should continue to pay for it. This idea of paying your way is one of the few points on which I agreed with Trump.when he was arguing with Germany about their NAATO contributions.


* https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-of-donor-gdp/

In fairness the Republic's GDP contains the mega-profits of Apple, Meta and similar multinationals who channel their European rakeoffs to benefit from Ireland's low rate of corporation tax. The 'personal' GDP is around or below European average I think. The Republic's medical system indeed charges plenty but its neighbour charges £0 only in theory. In practice. I'm forking out several £k to jump the NHS waiting list of 70 weeks for an URGENT dermatological appointment, with treatment even further ahead.

Returning to subject, Sinn Fein's pathological hatred of the UK will prevent any co-operation with its forces. They will probably and unwillingly accept a donation of a few billion euro to set up their own defence.:hmm:

I'm with Lonewolf on the subject of Costa Rica - had the privilege of visiting there last year and was impressed by how they spend the money saved by not having armed forces. Yes, there was a police presence in areas where immigrants from the 2 more-troubled neighbours tend to congregate - and that police presence appeared competent in its handling of its firearms - but every Costa Rican I spoke to was aware of how the savings paid for their universal education and universal basic health cover (the latter can be topped-up privately, but I have the impression from my conversations that the basic is adequate at the very least and probably better in terms of waiting lists than the UK's NHS). I was particularly struck by the pride of its citizens in Costa Rica's literacy and life-expectancy levels, as well as their general engagement in society rather than just in the wants/needs of the individual. No jingoistic nationalism for them - they're just properly chuffed with the benefits brought by hard work and sound investment. Even if some of the last goes toward China... but so does a lot of our money.

They can always get their best mates the Yanks to flog them a few old F-16's - they're used to selling weapons to SF.

Some years ago i used to go to a regular international telecoms event in DC and for various reasons became quite friendly with the Costa Rican delegate. A very suave character with excellent English and a great sense of humour.
He said that while Costa Rica didn't have an army, that wasn't to say it didn't have a defence system. This was phone on the presidents desk with 1-800-PENTAGON written on it.

these events were always interesting and for some years, I would be seated close to Argentina and as we both liked football I got along well with the Argentina delegate, we used to literally compare notes that his foreign ministry had given him about lslas Malvinas and the Foreign Office had given me to respond to his statement. We did debate swapping them for a laugh but figured someone would notice and not be amused. His brother had been to the said islands and told him it was the worst place nods earth in terms of bleakness and bad weather. the Plenary sessions to these sorts of events were often pretty boring and these minor amusements were welcome. Another one was the misspelling or Ireland to avoid Iran and Iraq sitting next to one another / As these were telecom global telecoms events the complexities were not as strictly observed as they would be at political events

Until Russian Bear Ds and Hs flying without a transponder in Irish Airspace.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...days-1.4200213

Thisnhas come a ways from an unserviceable Lear Jet and we seemed to have morphed into this thread

https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...ghters-13.html

While I realize that you are taking the piss, wouldn't a Gripen be a better value for the dollar? Situate a couple of EW radars in the right places, and run GCI as the normal ops.
Should meet the "good enough" standard.