https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....1c3464afa5.jpg
13th of May 2023. Celebrating 50 years of the Cat with other veterans that flew her, worked on her or associated with her. |
Originally Posted by Asturias56
(Post 11442536)
Perhaps we can wander back to the main topic? I wouldn't have mentioned the Lancaster bit :( - at least I didn't quote Gunston's views on the French - this thread would have been straight to Jet Blast............ :eek:
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With regard to maintaining the Jag. I seem to recall the wheel change jack up procedure was a little more involved then just a bottle jack. If I remember correctly it involved a two-legged trestle type jack that had be arranged over the bogey that pulled the undercarriage up rather than lifted it. I remember taking an inordinate amount of time to clear Lossie's runway whilst dealing with a blown tyre/fusible plug. I also remember using locking wire to stitch brake chute noddy caps back together..
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https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....08052a563.jpeg
My first view of the Jaguar, Paris Airshow 1971. |
Originally Posted by Akrotiri bad boy
(Post 11442556)
With regard to maintaining the Jag. I seem to recall the wheel change jack up procedure was a little more involved then just a bottle jack. If I remember correctly it involved a two-legged trestle type jack that had be arranged over the bogey that pulled the undercarriage up rather than lifted it. I remember taking an inordinate amount of time to clear Lossie's runway whilst dealing with a blown tyre/fusible plug. I also remember using locking wire to stitch brake chute noddy caps back together..
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Originally Posted by OJ 72
(Post 11442465)
Rolling 20 - From Martin Middlebrook ‘The Berlin Raids’ ‘…the Lancasters of 1 Gp carried the greatest load per aircraft: 4.17 tons…’.
Which, if Google is to be believed, equates to 8 340lbs per aircraft! Cf a Halifax 1.52 tons to Berlin (c3000lbs) and a Stirling 1.43 tons (2 860lbs)!!! |
Originally Posted by Rebus
(Post 11442464)
I was at RAF Leconfield in the 70's, with 60 MU doing Lightning Majors on F6's. Across the hanger they were doing a Mod's program on Jag's. The Jag was a pretty little aircraft and the Lightning made it look like a dinky toy but the Jag made the Lightning look prehistoric.
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Originally Posted by Thud_and_Blunder
(Post 11442396)
Although the RAF only ever wanted it (to begin with) as an Advanced Trainer, her heritage goes back through the Breguet 121 and the 1001 to the Taon - Breguet's entry into the NATO Light-Weight Strike Fighter competition that was ultimately won by the Fiat G91. Those early branches went off in another direction to produce the Etendard, which was chosen instead of the Anglo-French project to operate from French carriers. Wouldn't have fancied catapult launches in a Jag, from what I've heard of the available power (or lack thereof).
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
(Post 11442159)
Wasn't it intended (at one stage) to be an all-through trainer? From clean logbook to operational squadron?
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Originally Posted by OJ 72
(Post 11442465)
Rolling 20 - From Martin Middlebrook ‘The Berlin Raids’ ‘…the Lancasters of 1 Gp carried the greatest load per aircraft: 4.17 tons…’.
Which, if Google is to be believed, equates to 8 340lbs per aircraft! Cf a Halifax 1.52 tons to Berlin (c3000lbs) and a Stirling 1.43 tons (2 860lbs)!!! P 383 103 and 57 squadron. According to the operational record books, 103 on 1.1.44 carries the bomb load I quoted earlier and 57 slightly less. His figure is rather higher, but nothing to reference it to. I'm happy with my figures as they are from the official records. When I did my Air Power dissertation, my prof said never take at face value from others, always check official sources. Still rings true. That's me done, as others want to get back to the Jaguar. |
Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
(Post 11442564)
You would be correct. Same for the nose. If they had stuck a jack pad on the trailings arms. A bottle jack would do. Noddy caps. British designed bit?
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“We plough the fields and scatter the Jaguars from the land”
Cat 4/5 Accident Rates per 10,000 flying hours Jag 1.02/10,000fg hrs (>1973) GR7/9 0.97/10,000fg hrs (>1988) GR1/4 0.59/10,000fg hrs (>1980) F3 0.28/10,000fg hrs (>1985) Quite shocking and goodness knows what that accident rate would have been in the hands of inexperienced students. People often think that the Harrier was the worst in recent times, but the dear old Jag had a truly shocking loss rate in training accidents linked to its handling characteristics at high alpha and lack of SEP. Here is a list of those losses: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/JAGR |
Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 11442640)
“We plough the fields and scatter the Jaguars from the land”
Cat 4/5 Accident Rates per 10,000 flying hours Jag 1.02/10,000fg hrs (>1973) GR7/9 0.97/10,000fg hrs (>1988) GR1/4 0.59/10,000fg hrs (>1980) F3 0.28/10,000fg hrs (>1985) Quite shocking and goodness knows what that accident rate would have been in the hands of inexperienced students. People often think that the Harrier was the worst in recent times, but the dear old Jag had a truly shocking loss rate in training accidents linked to its handling characteristics at high alpha and lack of SEP. Here is a list of those losses: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/JAGR |
Quite a few ‘loss of control’ were suspected in these accidents too so the C really doesn’t belong in CFIT! I recall watching a T bird video where the student was flying simulated breaks against a bounce at low level - I think the aircraft departed around 15-16 AOA and the instructor yelled “I have control” as it did a crazy whiffadil at not many feet having bled off a lot of speed quickly. Lots of heavy breathing on the video with the student afterwards asking a somewhat quizzical “did I do that?” type question. Incredible that they did not crash.
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 11442668)
Quite a few ‘loss of control’ were suspected in these accidents too so the C really doesn’t belong in CFIT! I recall watching a T bird video where the student was flying simulated breaks against a bounce at low level - I think the aircraft departed around 15-16 AOA and the instructor yelled “I have control” as it did a crazy whiffadil at not many feet having bled off a lot of speed quickly. Lots of heavy breathing on the video with the student afterwards asking a somewhat quizzical “did I do that?” type question. Incredible that they did not crash.
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limits
I've read that the Jaguar had somewhat tricky handling just beyond it's limits - could someone please expand on this?
Was it FBW? Also with regards to maintainability in a previous life I was a mechanic / MOT inspector - it's a pet theory of mine that when the designers were designing if they had hands on experience of actually working on their own vehicles they'd either consciously or unconsciously make it easy to work on with those little features i.e. a Toyota Hilux doesn't require special tools and most components are easy to remove say at the side of a road in the bush in deepest Australia whereas a modern Range Rover or most German stuff is something of a joke - lots of things literally require a body off the chassis (although they are now mainly a monocoque but still full of gormless ideas) So a jacking pad on the bogey wouldn't necessarily occur to them within the design brief. |
No Fly By Wire - hydraulics and push rods only. However, there was a highly modified Jag, XX765, with large LERX and FBW. Apparently it handled really nicely, but the programme was axed in 1984. Some of the FBW data was used in EAP and thence Typhoon.
The aircraft is now at Cosford: https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0ba0fa8d1.jpeg |
Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 11442687)
No Fly By Wire - hydraulics and push rods only. However, there was a highly modified Jag, XX765, with large LERX and FBW. Apparently it handled really nicely, but the programme was axed in 1984. Some of the FBW data was used in EAP and thence Typhoon.
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Originally Posted by Shaft109
(Post 11442681)
I've read that the Jaguar had somewhat tricky handling just beyond it's limits - could someone please expand on this?
Was it FBW? Also with regards to maintainability in a previous life I was a mechanic / MOT inspector - it's a pet theory of mine that when the designers were designing if they had hands on experience of actually working on their own vehicles they'd either consciously or unconsciously make it easy to work on with those little features i.e. a Toyota Hilux doesn't require special tools and most components are easy to remove say at the side of a road in the bush in deepest Australia whereas a modern Range Rover or most German stuff is something of a joke - lots of things literally require a body off the chassis (although they are now mainly a monocoque but still full of gormless ideas) So a jacking pad on the bogey wouldn't necessarily occur to them within the design brief. Jaguar was control runs of alloy rods and idler levers, bellcranks, gearing devices and mixer units for the primary flying controls of all moving tail plane halves, rudder and roll spoilers. Don't mention spine bending either when high G would impart uncommanded rudder inputs to spoil your day. Spine bending potentiometers saved the day. Messier Dowty didn't think to put a pad on the gear. ATR did for a similar design. Could have been a mod on one component. Alas the relationship was well broken then |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11442635)
A lot of light aircraft set up with fixed gear had jacking pads that were shaped to the section of leg with a pad welded on it and were simply held in place by the Jack, I could never understand why they never came out with similar, they could have secured it with a pip pin through the tow cable attachment if needed.
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