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-   -   Further purchases of A400's binned due to cost. (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/650106-further-purchases-a400s-binned-due-cost.html)

tdracer 2nd Dec 2022 20:08


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 11341249)
Do please remind us what UK jobs are in the A400. Assembly is in Spain, engines built in Munich, the props come from France ... I think the wings do come from Chester, but the capacity there is sold out anyway on other Airbus programmes, so nothing additional.

Rolls Royce engines...

DaveReidUK 2nd Dec 2022 20:57


Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 11341272)
Rolls Royce engines...

28% RR engines, to be precise.

Europrop shareholders.

Rude C'man 3rd Dec 2022 08:07

https://www.airforce-technology.com/...9fURZEmPfPxIh8

Where do they get these figures from? Anyone who sees these every week knows this isn't true. The C130J is still covering tasks allocated to the C130J task line as they surge A400 Cap Dev.
How did Leeeson leave DES and walk into his job? Surely he had insider knowledge.
The interviews were so awkward.
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/inde...98?in=11:32:30

WHBM 3rd Dec 2022 09:29


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 11341293)
28% RR engines, to be precise.

Engines based on a French design and built in Germany, if I am not mistaken. I wonder if any Rolls-Royce jobs were created. However, I'm sure RR were required to contribute 28% of the development costs in those places.

HOVIS 3rd Dec 2022 09:54


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 11341249)
Do please remind us what UK jobs are in the A400. Assembly is in Spain, engines built in Munich, the props come from France ... I think the wings do come from Chester, but the capacity there is sold out anyway on other Airbus programmes, so nothing additional.

It's not just about jobs. It's about skills retention, development, engineering design etc. There is already a huge shortage of qualified and experienced people (check the job market, engineer salaries are rocketing). The new batch have to be trained somewhere. However I do agree, binning the C130 without further A400 orders is nuts.

pr00ne 3rd Dec 2022 10:24


Originally Posted by HOVIS (Post 11341537)
It's not just about jobs. It's about skills retention, development, engineering design etc. There is already a huge shortage of qualified and experienced people (check the job market, engineer salaries are rocketing). The new batch have to be trained somewhere. However I do agree, binning the C130 without further A400 orders is nuts.

The wings are designed and made in Filton-Bristol with a UK wide supply chain involving dozens of companies, GKN being a very significant one.
The engines have 30% Rolls-Royce content and more than 50% design.
RR also have a substantial UK supply chain and in addition there are numerous UK equipment suppliers to the rest of the airframe including avionics, airframe sub assemblies, transparencies and role equipment.

Stop this nonsensical dissing of anything British eh?

Sorry Hovis, not meant for you, meant to reply to
WHBM…

tucumseh 3rd Dec 2022 10:49


Originally Posted by Rude C'man (Post 11341474)
https://www.airforce-technology.com/...9fURZEmPfPxIh8

Where do they get these figures from? Anyone who sees these every week knows this isn't true. The C130J is still covering tasks allocated to the C130J task line as they surge A400 Cap Dev.
How did Leeeson leave DES and walk into his job? Surely he had insider knowledge.
The interviews were so awkward.
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/inde...98?in=11:32:30

Thanks for that link. If you keep watching, they discuss MFTS and Crowsnest.

Takeaways:

1. MoD keeps changing the spec/requirements on all 3. So, easy to divert from the original question.

2. Dave Doogan, as you would expect (trained MoD engineer), asks a great question about Crowsnest. Equally good answer, probably having already spotted that most members don't know the history, or are wary of going there. (It's a mod, of a mod, of a mod, of a...., and the basic assumption in 1993 was that ASaC7 would be the last time, not least because the procurement strategy then was a political overrule).

3. Mark Francois. Oh dear. Digs holes and jumps in.

4. I thought Leeson spoke well, but then he would know MoD's weaknesses better than most.

Blackfriar 3rd Dec 2022 12:32


Originally Posted by GeeRam (Post 11340928)
Not wishing to derail the thread :E with the subject of HS2, but Nutty, you need to do some reading up on HS2, as knocking 15 minutes off a journey time is NOT why HS2 is being built. HS2 is being built for the added capacity, by removing the fast through express trains from the WCML onto HS2 which will free up capacity on that route for added local train services and more importantly extra freight use.

However, chopping Albert and reducing Atlas buy seems barking mad.......(while having the highest houred C-17 fleet!)

HS2 is only there because it was part of the EU's high speed rail network strategy, so you could go from Nice to Manchester etc.. We had to do our bit. Everything else is bluff and propaganda.
Once fully rolled out they can cancel all short-haul flights for Net Zero.

Stratnumberone 3rd Dec 2022 21:28

Smoke, mirrors and downright lies. By late summer 2023 the extent of the lies will be clearer but it will be too late.

mike1964 4th Dec 2022 05:03


Originally Posted by A4scooter (Post 11341104)
Regardless of the A400 v C130 debate an aircraft can only be in one place at once & apart from Belgium & Luxembourg every other A400 operator has a fleet of smaller aircraft (C130, C235 & C295) to supplement the A400 fleet, is everyone else wrong & the RAF is right?
The RAF will be left with 2 x Falcon 900, 22 x A400, 8 x C17 & 10 x A330 while the UK has more military commitments than most & is heavily involved in humanitarian aid which will keep them very busy.

Reading this with interest, but I wonder whether this is a huge capacity reduction, compared to say 40 years ago when the RAF's transport fleet was round 55 Hercules, 20 VC10s of various types (some with maindeck tanks so very little transport capability vs AAR). Admittedly 6 TriStars came along soon after, but even so... Sure, more aircraft back then, but in terms of total payload/range for the transport fleet?

Abbey Road 4th Dec 2022 08:06


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 11341040)
On the other A400 thread, it says the Spanish have some surplus.

Regardless of where the aircraft are sourced, it doesn't stop them from being aircraft that aren't fit for purpose. :bored:

A4scooter 4th Dec 2022 10:54


Originally Posted by mike1964 (Post 11341946)
Reading this with interest, but I wonder whether this is a huge capacity reduction, compared to say 40 years ago when the RAF's transport fleet was round 55 Hercules, 20 VC10s of various types (some with maindeck tanks so very little transport capability vs AAR). Admittedly 6 TriStars came along soon after, but even so... Sure, more aircraft back then, but in terms of total payload/range for the transport fleet?

It doesn't matter how good an aircraft is, it can't be in two places at once & is it cost effective to use an A400 for a load that the Hercules would previously have carried?

Asturias56 4th Dec 2022 17:18

Probably not but then is it cost effective to have two types of tactical transport ?

The Helpful Stacker 4th Dec 2022 18:42


Originally Posted by Asturias56 (Post 11342280)
Probably not but then is it cost effective to have two types of tactical transport ?

Is the A400M really a tactical transport in the C130 mould, or is it more a Belfast for the 21st Century?

ExAscoteer2 4th Dec 2022 18:46

Not a chance that A400 is TacAT!

ExAscoteer2 4th Dec 2022 18:55

Oh, and in terms of UK manufacture, you are aware that C-130J has RR engines and Dowty props, and that the servicing plant outside of the USA is Marshalls of Cambridge?

I would warrant that's more UK employment than the dross that is A400.

The Helpful Stacker 4th Dec 2022 19:10

Wasn't the primary driver for A400M FRES/Scout SV/Ajax?

How is that program going?

JFZ90 4th Dec 2022 19:47


Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2 (Post 11342332)
Not a chance that A400 is TacAT!

Why do you say that?

I thought Leeson says it can do static and freefall.
It can likely do more CDS than a C130? And a much bigger range whilst doing so?
Any reason why other tac drops can't be done? Looks like air sea rescue is already covered.
I think Leeson implied it can take much more payload into given strip than a C130 - or it could have better shorter take-off landing than a C130 for the same payload.
This also probably means it can take C130J type payloads + way more fuel for longer trips / multiple hops into various austere places without refuelling.
I think he said it could operate onto softer strips full stop - ones the C130 presumably can't get into?
I think it was quoted above that availability was higher on A400M than C17 and C130 recently.

ExAscoteer2 4th Dec 2022 20:00


Originally Posted by JFZ90 (Post 11342362)
Why do you say that?

Because it's true.


Originally Posted by JFZ90 (Post 11342362)
I thought Leeson says it can do static and freefall.

Extremely limited compared to Albert.


Originally Posted by JFZ90 (Post 11342362)
nd a much bigger range whilst doing so?

It's StatAT and rubbish compared to C-17


Originally Posted by JFZ90 (Post 11342362)
I think Leeson implied it can take much more payload into given strip than a C130 - or it could have better shorter take-off landing than a C130 for the same payload.

He can claim what he likes but it's utter oblate spheroids.

T

Originally Posted by JFZ90 (Post 11342362)
his also probably means it can take C130J type payloads + way more fuel for longer trips / multiple hops into various austere places without refuelling.

Nope.


Originally Posted by JFZ90 (Post 11342362)
I think he said it could operate onto softer strips full stop - ones the C130 presumably can't get into?

Not a chance.


Originally Posted by JFZ90 (Post 11342362)
I think it was quoted above that availability was higher on A400M than C17 and C130 recently.

Really? A400 is demonstrably less serviceable.

JFZ90 4th Dec 2022 20:31

I think you are wrong around at least the CBR point on A400M vs C130, which makes me doubt the rest of your assertions.
It may be bigger/heavier but has a lot more wheels...


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