IL-76 EFATO enroute Ukraine
 

Despite the regime or national air forces that aircrew fly for, it is always a tragedy when lives of fellow aviators are lost doing what many of us here have done safely for years.

In WWI, enemies would battle in the open skies and many stories are told of jammed guns or exhausted bullet supplies, aircraft tech snags or other issues, and the two aviators recognised that they both belonged to a niche cadre, though on opposite sides, saluted each other and let each one go their separate ways.

I was saddened to read comments of armchair pundits celebrating the loss of the IL-76 and at least 4 crew. The deceased had been trained to fly, would've worked hard to get to their respective professional positions, now their lives have been terminated when the aircraft got the better of them. I think only fellow fliers can understand something of the journey that ended in a Russian field.

Whether flying for a pariah state or friendly forces, we're all aircrew first ...

Yes I remember exactly these sentiments being expressed about aircrew who got their comeuppance in Syria immediately after barrel-bombing some civilians.

Suffice to say, I won't be mourning their loss.

Serves them right for blowing up the Antonov 225

It would be a bit hypocritical to express sympathy when, if I had the means, I’d be happy to have shot it down after take-off.

It was, after all, on a military resupply flight into Ukraine.

At least they went out with a bang as opposed to sh*tting themselves while dying of cancer and old age.
It's not like they are delivering Christmas gifts to the children of Ukraine, more like death and destruction.
I had more sympathy for the three legged dog shown on one clip of the wreckage. With ORAC on this one.

Christ Nutty, don't feed the Russkie propaganda machine!:ok:

CG

So, even the Russian AC are rather committing suicide than delivering supplies to the troops.

We will be seeing more of these.

Maybe thats the difference between civilian and military aircrew, we knew the risks we were taking when signing on the bottom line. Thats not to say that i dont partially support the sentiment of the OP.

Though it was flying away from Ukraine at the time, in fact not that far from Moscow.

Bit of a "gotcha" moment, as The Sun would put it ...

Regardless of the direction, if one item delivered kills one person, one hopes they reap the same tenfold…... and some.

Well quite. One less SAM used, one more left for a different Russian aircraft.

Maybe that’s harsh, but at my interview they did ask how I felt about killing for a living. And I don’t have a huge amount of sympathy for the Russians.

I take no joy from seeing people killed on either side. Have we really lost our humanity to a point we can't see past the propaganda? Having said that I will be happy when Russia is defeated.

Sailors also share a common bond in war regardless of the side they fight for. My dad was in the Navy during WW2. The common enemy was the sea.

In your comment, you really do seem to want to include every possible combination. Sometimes an adult has to say : It's sad, but on balance I'm glad they died "

No I haven’t lost my humanity, and yes it is always sad to see people die, BUT Ukraine did not invade anyone, Russia did, or should I say Putin did.

It is on the Russian peoples hands to end this and remove Putin and his cronies, either militarily or by a public ousting, and until that happens every single one of them, crew included are complicate in the murder of women and children and the massacres they are committing.
So no I am not sad, they had the choice to walk away, something the children and women of Bucha with their bodies raped and their hands tied behind their backs as they were executed did not.

They had a choice and they chose not to take it, one can only hope their final moments were in abject agony…. End of.

We are in the business of killing. Yes, it should be the absolute last resort, but we should be prepared to do it. And when our enemies do the job themselves for us, it makes our job that little bit easier.

Imagine if this thread was on PPRuNe-ski about a C-17 EFATO from BZN. Given all our efforts to support Ukraine I doubt they would be sympathetic.

Yup, if you have a rabid dog, you do not pet it, you put it down.

Yes I agree. But do we have to take such joy at the killing?

I would not say it is joy, I see it more as a realistic point of view based on the the abhorrent reality that Is Ukraine.
How anyone can kill and rape women and children, destroy the infrastructure and expect people people to accept it
and not blame every man and his / her dog from the front line troops back to the support staff, be it pilots flying in re supplies and ammunition, to the guy cleaning the toilets in some camp in Outer Mongolia, they are all complicate in what is going on, and all are responsible.

One death, crew wise means many Ukrainians saved from shelling or shooting, and that is something to rejoice in.


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Every city I have been in in Ukraine has been attacked by missiles or artillery fired indiscriminately against military and civilians alike. When you see this killing and maiming of innocents and wanton destruction first hand, then 1 more russian military IL-76 down, no matter the way it happens, is just a bloody good start... you %#$@ appeasers!

My humanity is reserved for rescuing or giving first aid to someone that might have crashed in front of me no matter who they are - that’s something that I have to live with. Until the russian military pack up and go home then they deserve all that’s coming - let God sort them out.

It was such a thought that made me start the thread. The Americans used to say "A good Commie is a dead Commie" but, as we are an educated people, we know that we shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.

Not everyone in Germany in WWII was a Nazi; we know that not all Russians are in support of Putin's "Special Operation" and remember, for citizens in a totalitarian state to oppose the war, it takes far greater courage than we give credit for.

References to barrel bombs in Syria related to an IL-76 is like comparing a JDAM from a Typhoon in Iraq with an A400M out of BZN. The pilots of the heavy are not doing what the pilot of the FJ is doing so to tie them together on the basis that they are both in the military that happens to be led by a madman, thereby making them equally culpable, is extraordinary.

I abhor all that is being done to the Ukrainians; I wish western powers would say 'enough is enough' and ignore protocols and pacts and give Russia a good taste of its own medicine. But in all of this, let's not become part of the baying crowd and lose our own sense of humanity and respect for fellow aviators who may just have been resigned to doing another task that they didn't agree with.

The RN operates under the sea, above the sea or on the sea.
For those of us that operated from “pussers grey war canoes” the sea really becomes your enemy if you are IN the sea. Once in the water no matter who you are it’s survival time and you all work together!

The less aircraft the Russians have the better.

I’m sorry but who is more screwed up in their view of this, me or you Nil, Eichmann was a soldier, as a fellow soldier should one feel remorse at his death? no, don’t tar everyone with the same war brush, but slap it on thick for those none civilians feeding it.

The conscript on the front line is nothing without the professionals feeding, arming and supplying him.

I am not justifying anything wicked that is being done, just mulling over the Forum's approach to this interesting subject.

For instance: a NATO ally crashes and burns. Immediate comments would be "I'll raise a glass" or "Blue skies" because an aviator has perished in his machine. In my view rightly so. What we don't know is that he may have been a racist, wife-beating paedophile when he wasn't flying.

Now a Russian IL-76 crashes and burns and the immediate response is cheers and a desire for it to happen again. What we don't know was whether these were 4 decent men, good husbands and fathers, apolitical in their views and probably were flying the IL-76 long before Putin came to power.

Therefore, my point is, should we allow an aviation tragedy to be coloured by the national flag that the aviators happened to operate under, and the politics of the national leader that they might despise, when we know absolutely nothing about the individuals involved except that they were fellow aviators?

I do understand where you are coming from, but they could just as easily have resigned from their contract, by not doing so they are agreeing with what is going on in Ukraine, so my sympathy ends there. You are by your actions compounding the issue.

If an aircrew in NATO was found to be standing by with the knowledge that raping and murder of women and children was going on and continued to support them, I would have the same feelings.
At some point you have to stand up for the rights of the many over the actions of the few.

If it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling mourning the loss of fellow aviators, knock yourself out......but I think you're being naive. They knew what they were signing up for and were doing their bit to further the twisted ambitions of a lunatic. My sympathies lie with the ordinary people of the Ukraine who have had their world torn apart and been brutalised beyond belief. Let's also consider that there is always the possibility that his ambitions may "expand" somewhat. I wonder what you'd think if your "brother" airmen were brought down whilst heading this way? So, I really don't care who they were or what their occupation was.........All's fair in love and war.......and they were engaged in war.........so, it's a solid tough sh#t from me old thing.

Sorry NIlDrift but ultimately your your point of view is immoral.

If I’ve been trained to kill or fly AT, is it ok now if I go and kill or fly AT in anyones army, for any purpose at all, and say I’m just doing my job?

Everyone who has a skill set, eg soldiers, sailors and aircmen, must decide if what they are doing serves the moral good and, if not, be prepared to walk away, resign or not join up. What makes a war just? Conquest (eg Russians in Ukraine in 2022), or liberation (Allies in Normandy in 1944)?

So should we support a crew serving in Putin’s unjust and immoral ‘special operation’? Of course not, not in any capacity!