What utter horse poo. WE DO NOT SELECT BY APPEARANCE - selection is via 5 things:

1. Application and being inside the required selection criteria (educational quals, age and fitness).
2. Computer Based Aptitude Testing (CBAT) that looks to select the very best that will likely pass the early stages of flying training. Some females claim that the test is white male biased - little do they know that the head psychologist that sets and runs the CBAT batteries is a female from a mixed heritage. So that kind of sinks that criticism.
3. Leadership exercises - the good old hangar exercises and some group/solo exercises.
4. Interview - normally about 20 minutes or so. There are males and females doing that and also from varied backgrounds.
5. Medical - check of medical fitness and also anthropology (ie. Body measurement) to ensure they fit in the Service’s aircraft.

So, the claim that they are selected on appearance is totally bogus.

Why do I think that we get fewer applying that are not white and male? Firstly, much of the ethnic minority are still allied to the countries that they or their parents came from - so for some they are still building an allegiance to serve (which will come). For some, their foreign cultures feel incompatible to what we ask Service Pers to do. Some suffer from poor education due to wider culture issues in the UK and how multi-ethnic integration has been stifled by not mixing the population (which can be seen in areas that are very much ethnically dominated above the national average, or vice-versa where the white population are well over represented). Some of the recent conflicts have seen some caught between their religious beliefs and where those conflicts have been fought (and probably discouraged by their religious leaders).

Like all things, you can’t force this. If you set up the right environment then they will come - females and multi-ethnic backgrounds. But if you force it too hard, then you just run the risk of upsetting just about everyone and putting lots off! Finally, like LJ hinted at, you won’t see every Profession reflecting society, that is plain daft, just like we are unlikely to see it reflected in the staff for midwifery, ethnic restaurants or beauty treatment. There are some jobs that are more attractive to certain groups of people.

The RAF figures are low but overall at 10% doesn’t look too bad to me. Out of interest I wonder how many BAME members are actually eligible to apply?

In my limited time in the service (33 years) some of the worst examples of intolerance (the only ones I saw) were between BAME and BAME.

By the way Mrs deG is BAME and hates the term.

Yup, as for ‘no role models’ - plenty of examples like from WW1 then the first black Pilot was Sergeant William Robinson Clarke who flew RE8s on the Western Front in 1917. In WW2 then there were many famous Officer Aircrew like Philip Ulric Cross DFC, Cy Grant, Johnny Smythe, Emanuel Adjeniyi Thomas, David Abiodun Oguntoye, Arthur Wint (not only a Pilot but also a Gold Medal winner in the London Olympics) and Errol Walton Barrow - there were many more less famous. Then more recently you have Trevor Edwards, ex-RAF Regt and later combat ready Jaguar Pilot. On the Jag fleet there was also a Jag QWI from Asian heritage (seen in many a poster and news article). We have the women of the ATA, then the RAFVR women pilots that received their full RAF Wings in 1952/1953. Then the first female Air Quartermaster, the first full-time RAF Aircrew to get combat ready, was Pat Magill (nee Howard) in the late 1960s and then became the first female officer Air Loadmaster in 1974. Then we have the continual intake of females into the Flying Branches (now Aircrew Profession) since 1989 onwards - with ‘firsts’ (many incorrectly) claimed by the RAF in massive PR releases.

So the role models are out there if you choose to look for them.

PS. I should also add that many from multi-ethnic backgrounds do not have the residency or UK nationality requirements to hold the security clearances required too. Most aircraft types need DVs these days too - all Fast Jet and ISTAR types, and growing numbers of helos and transport aircraft. So that is another issue. Again, it will come, but having parents with non-UK passports or single-digit years of residency in the UK will stop many - as will criminal records should they be unfortunate to live in an area where such things are commonplace. Again, that is not for the Armed Forces to resolve as these are central Government policies that affect.

PPS. Just looked it up on the web. For a DV you should have resided in the United Kingdom for the 10 years immediately preceding your application but candidates with a minimum of 7 years will be considered. You must be a citizen of the United Kingdom since birth and must not hold (and must never have held) any other nationality or citizenship (including joint nationality) with the exception of dual British Irish citizens. So if you have parents that have registered you for dual citizenship as they hold foreign passports then that will cause recruitment issues.

The B word, quite right. My understanding of some of the problems in recruiting from those of sub- continent heritage is that the Armed forces are not seen as as a 'Respectable' occupation such as doctor, teacher, solicitor, dentist or commercial pilot. The forces are seen as a job for those who find other employment difficult. Consequently, those offspring are discouraged from joining. So, until the PR gurus can start showing joining the services as a respectable choice, the low recruitment from certain sections of society will remain low. Using positive Action is not the answer.

Well that's discrimination in action right there!! How come it's the lads carrying the lasses?

Perhaps because the Lasses were flagging more than the lads?

Ba boom..........'ere all week! :ok:

Christ you lot are thin skinned.

and not all the right way up.

They do look the right way up to me, but most of the flags are wrong.. Possibly all.

Immaterial as one of the lads had been naughty with the steroids. All lost their silver medals.

He'll be popular!

Errrrrrr, tongue was pressed firmly in cheek there mate!

D Reg always wanted to fly. Trevor E was a rock officer trainee that never thought about being a pilot until he was medically damaged by frost bite and it was try another path in the Mob. He had of course done IOT before his swap. Both above average as pilots and blokes.

Not Sarah by any chance?

Jack

If the joke has to be explained to you, then the thickness of skin is irrelevant!

Putting one's image out there in the current environment is probably not a good idea. A potential enemy would have them taken out before they got through the base entry to fight a war.
Whoever gets the gig is welcome to it.

To note, the anthropometric tests used to fit an aircraft are fundamentally anti-female, until every aircraft with an ejection seat is designed to fit the 5th centile female to the 95th centile male.

if you’re a 50th centile woman you’re unlikely to pass them.

Indeed cynicalint......indeed. Ah well.

Sigh.....Dave, that was the whole point of what I wrote. Of course we can't select people who don't apply. Therefore, what we can do is encourage more people to apply and we do this, in part, by positive action steps such as highlighting those from such communities who have joined. And of course, this is a complicated area, the B Word makes some good points about ingrained beliefs in some of those communities. This makes it all the more important for us to make efforts to break down those stereotypes. None of this should be contentious, and neither should the implication be drawn that this is any way minimises the contribution of those of us who look more like those stereotypes. However, this is the internet - I just can't remember if I came for the 5 minute argument or the 10 minute one...

"Preferably not White Male".....is that poorly written in today's PC World?

Would a White Male (at Birth) but who now self Identifies as a Black Female an eligible for that selection?

I would suggest the selection criteria needs much fleshing out.....to effectively describe the subsets of RAF Pilots that meet the desired criteria as what was posted is far too vague and does not provide equity of outcomes for all who might be interested in the Opening(s).

After that....the criticisms would be far better focused.

RLE much though I disagree with a lot of what you say , you are , of course, right that this is not discrimination but positive action. What pissed me off with the whole thing was the low standard of comms.

I suspect that you are in for the full half hour argument !

Apparently the RAF/MOD has now "apologised" for the Tweet. Apologies for the source... .

"A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: 'This language should not have been used and we apologise for any offence caused. We are determined to encourage more people, no matter their sex or race, into the RAF.'"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Gun-event.html

"Gareth and I" .... it would seem that nobody has picked up on the fact that it should be "Gareth and me". Probably Sarah is one of those who never uses "me" and uses "myself" every time. Well qualified to be a high profile Comms 'expert' for the RAF.

ND

See post 2. The use of quick not quickly wasn’t much better.

"This language should not have been used" can be taken as

"the thrust of the message was OK, but badly expressed".

I suspect that this sorry s**t show will have ‘successfully’ discouraged people from all backgrounds from considering a career in the RAF. Well done all involved!

Actually, post #2 made reference to that.

Who cares? If someone (who's eligible) has the same burning desire as the rest of us to be RAF pilots from the moment they can first remember, there is nothing stopping them. The colour, sexuality etc of the individual makes no difference, in the same way that the person appearing at the topgun 2 premier (which I think will be rubbish btw) makes not a jot of difference to anything.

Yes, we could debate many things regarding society, and I'm keen to, as I love nothing more than good debate, but what does it matter? I shall open with, "not a jot.".

Its irrelevant what race, sex, colour or creed the person is. Top Gun and the sequel Top Gun Maverick is about the US Navy Fighter Weapons school and the crabs should steer well clear of jumping on the maritime bandwagon.

It is a very small bandwagon so, yes, not enough room.

Anyone stop to consider that BAME is statistically under represented as pilots because:

a) They don't want to be pilots.
b) Family and cultural pressures steer them to more "respectable" occupations like doctors, solicitors, accountants or surgeons.

Junior may wish to become the newer model E-Reg, but that matters not if mummy and daddy want to say their child is an important banker in the City.

I am all for getting the right person for the job no matter what their creed or colour or limb count, but the bottom line is they have to want to do it, and they need family support before any positive-discrimination vid will have an impact.

As a parting shot, I think every "White Male Pilot" should reply to Sarah and Gareth with a simple "Why can I not apply?"

Excellent points, SWB. A couple of years ago I was sat for the duration of a ~10 hour flight next to an extremely pleasant, intelligent and urbane young man of Indian descent, who had just left school with excellent results in all subjects. He'd been in and enjoyed Air Cadets or ATC, whatever it was at the time - in fact it was one of his main topics of conversation - but was off to university to do an economics/business degree.
I don't know what guided his decision, but it may well have been parental pressure. Equally, I guess, it may have been his own decision based on other reasons, but he was certainly going to miss the aviation environment.

Absolutely SWB...........Sarah and Gareth need to attend an equalities and diversity course pronto! Many years ago, my boss represented the blue light services at a college open day. A lovely guy and a fine ambassador for the service. Anyway, he decides it's about time we "target" females of Asian descent........he could still here the laughter as he was driving away. He couldn't believe the disdain and incredulity at his suggestion of a career in the emergency services. Granted, it would have been 20 years ago but maybe other sections of the community need to be more open minded? If you've got what it takes and you want to do it, you'll do it.........to suggest that discrimination is the reason is very convenient. You can lead a horse to water...................

Surely, everyone knows that you don't need to ask "were you a pilot?".

A "real" pilot will tell you in their opening sentence ;-)