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-   -   Russia - Military Strength vs Expenditure. How do they do it? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/644835-russia-military-strength-vs-expenditure-how-do-they-do.html)

Lonewolf_50 26th Jan 2022 19:24


Originally Posted by Obba (Post 11175580)
At the time of Desert Shield - wasn't the Iraqi Military listed as the worlds 4th largest army in qty of units...?
And most of that was Russian made ?

So brings to mind the quality of the goods or lack of training (I suspect the latter), that Stormin Norman took Iraq in 100days.

As this is a military aviation forum, I'd not thought that I'd need to point out that Norm had air superiority, and even air supremacy, once the ground units got rolling.
He also had a significant advantage in space based "eyes in the sky" -- combined arms warfare being what it is, I'd not attribute that success to equipment differences or numbers.

paco 27th Jan 2022 07:17

Reading a book called Lions Dinosaurs and Donkeys - Waste and Blundering in the Military by Lewis Page would be instructive on this..... especially with regard to the Apache

Bob Viking 27th Jan 2022 07:58

Lewis Page
 
Bearing in mind the author, could we assume that the aforementioned book highlights how great the RN is and how bad all the other services are? Does it also conclude by saying that the RAF should be subsumed into the FAA?

BV

Not_a_boffin 27th Jan 2022 09:01


Originally Posted by paco (Post 11175778)
Reading a book called Lions Dinosaurs and Donkeys - Waste and Blundering in the Military by Lewis Page would be instructive on this..... especially with regard to the Apache

Lewis Page is to defence matters what Meghan Whatsherface is to literature.

Not_a_boffin 27th Jan 2022 09:03


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 11175791)
Bearing in mind the author, could we assume that the aforementioned book highlights how great the RN is and how bad all the other services are? Does it also conclude by saying that the RAF should be subsumed into the FAA?

BV

To be fair, its more likely to say that the RN would have been great if only they'd put him in charge to implement his vast knowledge and understanding gained on the tupperware fleet.......

NutLoose 27th Jan 2022 09:05


I think Ukraine may be a way tougher nut for Russia to crack now, esp with their growing capability with Turkish-built drones, which proved themselves so effective in Nagorno-Karabakh (armour, trucks, artillery, sheesh the operators even got so bored they started picking off individual troops in foxholes). Just have a fleet of these patrolling up and down the border, ready to plink anything which crosses the line.
They might be better employed taking out rail, tunnels and bridges to hamper the resupply routes?

paco 27th Jan 2022 11:19

Whoever wrote the book does not change the facts. Not only the Apache saga but the SLR replacement as well.

aerobat77 27th Jan 2022 13:35

A really good thread with many useful answers !

one poInt is like already mentioned that russia spents a bigger percentage of its military budget to actual weapon systems than nato countries do . In the western world much is used for salaries , pensions , social programs etc . The costs for keeping nato standarts of the infrastructure like air bases , naval bases etc is also not comparable to russian air or naval bases.

when it comes to actual weapon systems they 'fool' us a bit with sheer numbers but it does not say much about the combat capabilities . Old and rusty tanks or planes in storage look on the paper impressive but do not say much about true combat strenght.

Even never systems appear to shine only on the paper . Lets take the fancy s-400 air defense system . In theory superior to patriot , in practise in syria or armenia turkish drones and missiles were able to perform their mission nevertheless .

Russia never showed off military strenght big scale since ww2 , in fact they even struggled to force out few thousand rebels out of aleppo in syria , the same in chehen war .

I,m not saying its nothing what they have because it would be naive to assume it - but lets not overerstimate it .

When there was a comparision to the uk - I guess russia from a military point of view would just stall in a try for an all out invasion of the uk and trying to rise the russian flag on buckingham palace . ( assuming only russia vs uk )


rigpiggy 27th Jan 2022 18:40


Originally Posted by pba_target (Post 11175307)
Nope, not in this case. Iirc some stuff was (fuel couplings), but their ammo is totally different. 7.62x39mm (AK ammo) is a different length to NATO ammo (7.62x51mm) and is fundamentally incompatible. The AK was conceived much more as a sub-machine gun rather than the "battle rifle" typically associated with 7.62 NATO (FAL etc)

NATO ammo is (for m80) a 10g bullet doing 850m/s ish while Soviet is an 8g bullet doing 715m/s ish, to give a rough comparison in "oompf"

Putting a 762 Russian in a 7.62 NATO or the other way around wouldn't fire, may cause a jam... And the 5.45/5.56 the same. However many combloc mortars were made to use NATO spec ammo in a pinch. 81/82mm with loss in range and accuracy but still shoots.
I
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Bing 28th Jan 2022 08:14


The costs for keeping NATO standards of the infrastructure like air bases , naval bases etc is also not comparable to Russian air or naval bases.
You mean they can manage to not have hot water and lighting for less than we do?

Less Hair 28th Jan 2022 08:41

Western prisoners live at a higher standard than their conscripts do.

Asturias56 28th Jan 2022 09:19

"They might be better employed taking out rail, tunnels and bridges to hamper the resupply routes?"

Absolutely Nut - especially as I understand that one of the timing constraints on Putin is when does the landscape turn to mud - there aren't enough roads etc to deploy all that kit when that happens - right now the ground is frozen solid and that is a critical metric for the time window

henra 28th Jan 2022 10:20


Originally Posted by Asturias56 (Post 11176433)
Absolutely Nut - especially as I understand that one of the timing constraints on Putin is when does the landscape turn to mud - there aren't enough roads etc to deploy all that kit when that happens - right now the ground is frozen solid and that is a critical metric for the time window

??? But what happens if their Kit is in and the Ground starts to turn to mud and someone starts turkey shooting at the heavy Kit? I'm not sure that sounds like a robust plan!?

NutLoose 28th Jan 2022 12:37


Originally Posted by henra (Post 11176471)
??? But what happens if their Kit is in and the Ground starts to turn to mud and someone starts turkey shooting at the heavy Kit? I'm not sure that sounds like a robust plan!?

A tank without fuel is a pillbox, a tank without ammo is a vunerable pillbox.. take out enough of the supply routes and things will turn to a crawl, you then have the opportunity to pick them off.
Rail, as with hard roads and bridges will still be operational regardless of the ground turning to mud, your supply line will then be funnelled through those.

melmothtw 28th Jan 2022 13:30

All this talk of 'waiting for the ground to freeze so Putin can use his tanks'. It's 2022 not 1942 - Ukraine is a modern European country with modern European roads, and it doesn't really matter how muddy or not the fields are.

Beamr 28th Jan 2022 13:49

It's not 1942 of course but having a convoy of tanks reluctant of leaving a paved road is like shooting fish on a barrell for the counterpart (air and ground forces). If the situation is that there is no opposition, better to move them on trains and trucks. It'll be a lot faster too.
however, as it is no 1942 there is much more than just tanks to worry about.

melmothtw 28th Jan 2022 14:06

Is Ukraine's soil different from that of Belarus or the areas of Russia that border it? Does Ukraine's Army not drive tanks on its own fields for the 11 months of the year they're not completely frozen over?

For sure it will get a little muddy, but not to the extent that it might paralyse any movement as it did in 1941/1942, when the main roads that are today all paved were all dirt.

NutLoose 28th Jan 2022 14:31

So was the road out of Kuwait where they all congregated together and how did that work out for them?

Beamr 28th Jan 2022 16:37

I don't think that the Ukrainian soil and whether it is frozen or not has much impact on strategic planning. There is no massive mbt battle in sight but tanks breaking weak spots in defences and mechanized infantry coming in in BMP's and BTR's taking advantage of the opportunity to isolate enemy formations. They also protect the MBT's from enemy infantry with NLAW's and such. Take out the BTR's, the MBT's lose cover and turn very vulnerable for ambush. Or just use the artillery to take the MBT's out from a distance.
It is no surprise that the ukrainians have requested and delivered with Javelins, NLAWs, big bore artillery shells and such. The estonians offered artillery as well but since those originated in DDR the germans hate the idea (and offer helmets instead...).

So its not just the MBT's, its about everything else that comes with them that needs to be stopped. And most of the other stuff is very tolerant to bad terrain, especially everything that flies. And eventually the soft soil season is very short so it doesn't make much difference, in the summer it's yet again good to go, even with 1942 standards.

In any case it would take enormous brass balls to line them as a convoy and go solely by the roads. It would be a turkey shoot for the defenders. The soviets tried that in 1939 and didn't work out even then. They were slaughtered in divisions.

NutLoose 29th Jan 2022 00:36


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 11175131)
But I’d be needed to win the war. I’m not going to do that for free. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

I can just imagine the Ruskies quaking in their boots at the sight of me and my Hawk. I’ll destroy them with my (simulated) AMRAAMs.

BV

Couldn’t you send your student up on a solo and retire to the bar ;)


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