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-   -   US Nuclear sub has hit an unknown object in the South China sea (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/643102-us-nuclear-sub-has-hit-unknown-object-south-china-sea.html)

tartare 3rd Nov 2021 07:52

Can any ex-submariners explain how, if the boat hit an uncharted seamount, the crew or Commander might be held responsible?
If I understand this correctly, if the boat isn't pinging with active sonar - it can't actually `see' any objects in front of it, and is entirely reliant on it's INS and the accuracy of existing charts to know where it is - right?

Not_a_boffin 3rd Nov 2021 10:40


Originally Posted by tartare (Post 11136462)
Can any ex-submariners explain how, if the boat hit an uncharted seamount, the crew or Commander might be held responsible?
If I understand this correctly, if the boat isn't pinging with active sonar - it can't actually `see' any objects in front of it, and is entirely reliant on it's INS and the accuracy of existing charts to know where it is - right?

Correct - but with the proviso that course/speed/depth selection should be appropriate for the level of accuracy and age of the chart.

We had a similar incident with HMS Superb in 2008. I've seen the damage - not public domain - and it made a mess of the forward free-flood spaces. In that case the CO mis read the chart.

B Fraser 3rd Nov 2021 12:09

Thanks for the recommendation, the south American river supplier will deliver shortly,

Navaleye 3rd Nov 2021 12:55


Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin (Post 11136537)
Correct - but with the proviso that course/speed/depth selection should be appropriate for the level of accuracy and age of the chart.

We had a similar incident with HMS Superb in 2008. I've seen the damage - not public domain - and it made a mess of the forward free-flood spaces. In that case the CO mis read the chart.

Which is why all major navies invest in hydrographic survey ships. Not so long ago 40+ year old charts were commonplace, things have improved greatly in recent years, but to survey the Pacific would be a mammoth task and would take years. I saw the damage to USS San Francisco after a similar incident - it nearly sank - ouch.

Recc 3rd Nov 2021 13:03


Originally Posted by tartare (Post 11136462)
Can any ex-submariners explain how, if the boat hit an uncharted seamount, the crew or Commander might be held responsible?
If I understand this correctly, if the boat isn't pinging with active sonar - it can't actually `see' any objects in front of it, and is entirely reliant on it's INS and the accuracy of existing charts to know where it is - right?

Not a submariner, but all US submarines will have a fathometer that will use low power directional acoustic signals (not really comparable to "active sonar" as would generally be understood). I presume that there are many circumstances where the use of active fathometers would not be appropriate, but the decision on whether or not to use it is one that could be examined. In addition, there are now published demonstrations of passive fathometers and it is probably safe to assume that, if the technology and signal processing methods are public domain, the US navy has even more developed technology.

Ninthace 3rd Nov 2021 16:36

I would sack the for'ard lookout.

Herod 3rd Nov 2021 21:21

Ninthace

I would sack the for'ard lookout.
I was going to suggest a big window in the front, and a whacking great headlight.. :ok:

Ninthace 3rd Nov 2021 23:02


Originally Posted by Herod (Post 11136852)
Ninthace I was going to suggest a big window in the front, and a whacking great headlight.. :ok:

And anti collision strobes on the sea mounts. Makes sense except this one wasn't on the chart.

Better idea and cheaper than cutting a window. Two glass bow caps, a nob off powerful searchlight in one tube and a scuttle in the rear door of the other tube to squint through. I leave the details to the spanner jockeys, I am more of an ideas man.

If that is too dear, what about a long white stick bolted to the front end?

tartare 4th Nov 2021 00:47

Hmm - a searchlight.
Noting that you're joking (?) as someone who knows very little about submarine warfare, I assume that any emitted radiation - even frequency hopping - of any strength and spectra is probably pretty good at broadcasting one's position, visible light, LIDAR, same issue, and infrared.
If `seeing' ahead underwater without giving away one's position was possible, shirley someone would have done so by now...?
Recc - the passive fathometer stuff is intriguing.
Knowing a little about passive radar in the aviation world, I presume at the depths most submarines are at, there is not enough biologic or ambient noise to provide any sort of passive `image' of what is ahead.
Advice from those who know more appreciated.
Interested to read too about how out of date some charts still are.
I had assumed that areas of interest such as the South China Sea were mapped and know to the millimetre - but clearly not so!
This whole business of underwater navigation is fascinating stuff.

Mk 1 4th Nov 2021 07:52


Originally Posted by Herod (Post 11136852)
Ninthace I was going to suggest a big window in the front, and a whacking great headlight.. :ok:

That's part of the new AUKUS design - with a flyscreen and opening window for the warm tropical waters to our North.

Radley 4th Nov 2021 07:59


Originally Posted by Herod (Post 11136852)
Ninthace I was going to suggest a big window in the front, and a whacking great headlight.. :ok:

It was good enough for the ‘Seaview’ in Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, and that was real. Well it was on the tele.

tartare 4th Nov 2021 08:57


Originally Posted by Radley (Post 11136985)
It was good enough for the ‘Seaview’ in Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, and that was real. Well it was on the tele.

Remember it well.
Especially the flying subs!

The transparent-hull "window-section" bow of Seaview was not rounded like a traditional submarine but was faired into a pair of manta winglike, stationary bow planes (in addition to her more conventional sail planes). This was added after the original B-29-like front with twelve pairs of windows on two levels was modified for "Freudian anatomically analogous issues."

NutLoose 4th Nov 2021 10:03


Originally Posted by Ninthace (Post 11136704)
I would sack the for'ard lookout.

You cannot blame him, my bet would be the second officer had been reassigned prior to sailing and took the keys to the lookouts locker containing their binoculars.

Mount a PNG camera on the front and a screen inside or some of those car reversing aid jobbies that detect walls etc.. ;)

ShyTorque 4th Nov 2021 11:10

PNG? Now you’re really showing your age! ;)

Widger 4th Nov 2021 12:31


Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
I would sack the for'ard lookout.
You owe me a new keyboard. This one is covered in tea!

RAFEngO74to09 4th Nov 2021 19:52

As expected, CO, XO & COB all relieved for "Loss of confidence"

USS Connecticut CO, XO, COB Relieved Over Collision in South China Sea ‘Due to Loss of Confidence’ - USNI News

SOPS 5th Nov 2021 07:26


Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09 (Post 11137325)


Tea and no biscuits?

Ninthace 5th Nov 2021 09:22


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11137513)
Tea and no biscuits?

Loss of confidence? Could be tea and sympathy but I doubt it. To err is human, to forgive is not Navy policy.

NutLoose 5th Nov 2021 11:37

More on the incident, its arrived safely at port.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/04/a...dst/index.html

Video Mixdown 5th Nov 2021 12:02

Officially, in which direction does this ‘loss of confidence’ flow? Downwards from Fleet Command, who could have lost a submarine, or upwards from the rest of the crew, who probably didn’t enjoy having their boat rammed into a mountain.


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