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The Good Old Days (not so)
Air Force Safety Center > Divisions > Aviation Safety Division > Aviation Statistics
Some amazing stats found the the above website: 1951 124 F-80s destroyed 1953 180 F-84s destroyed 1955 274 F-86s destroyed (1000 over a 4 year window) 1956 a mere 32 F-89s destroyed - but there were not many of them in the first place 1958 116 F-100s destroyed (between 56-59 it averaged 100/year) Make yourself a coffee and prepare to be enthralled T |
The RAF lost 879 Meteors in post-war accidents up until the end of the '50s.....
Good old days? Survivors seemed to think so!! |
Originally Posted by BEagle
(Post 11088065)
The RAF lost 879 Meteors in post-war accidents up until the end of the '50s.....
Good old days? Survivors seemed to think so!! |
The unforgettable Alex Tarwid once described to me the time that he arrived at the local railway station in Yorkshire for his Meteor conversion. Whilst waiting for MT, he saw a meatbox do a death-dive around finals and crash in the undershoot. The other two aircraft in the circuit came to have a butchers and had a mid-air.
interesting days! Mog |
One of my old QFIs described arriving for his Meteor (possibly Vampire) course at Worksop & seeing the Stn display pilot wipe himself out during a practice. A tannoy that afternoon asked for volunteers to be the new Stn display pilot.
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Wasn't there a day in the 50's where something like five aircraft were lost at air displays across the country.
All fatal and one which landed on a house killing the occupants. I had read somewhere (source exscapes me) that a likely cause was ex wartime crews pushing the envelope, making mistakes. PTSD perhaps? |
Five different air display in one day......not much chance of that happening again is there?
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I remember reading a piece by a WW2 pilot who said that he knew he was part of a peacetime Air Force post war when he couldn’t find anyone on his Sqn prepared to do night formation aeros with him...
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Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 11088108)
Five different air display in one day......not much chance of that happening again is there?
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11088157)
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Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 11088108)
Five different air display in one day......not much chance of that happening again is there?
Its been 2 decades odd now since there has been one!! |
Old days
Just finished reading ‘Meteor Boys’ - makes the 10% Harrier fatalities we had at one stage in the ‘80s seem rather tame.
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Originally Posted by munnst
(Post 11088102)
Wasn't there a day in the 50's where something like five aircraft were lost at air displays across the country.
All fatal and one which landed on a house killing the occupants. I had read somewhere (source exscapes me) that a likely cause was ex wartime crews pushing the envelope, making mistakes. PTSD perhaps? As an aside, from the written answers in Hansard in December 1951 Jet Aircraft (Fatal Accidents)Mr. E. L. Mallalieu asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air in how many fatal accidents jet fighters have been involved in the last six months; and how many of these have occurred in Lincolnshire. Mr. Birch. Between 1st June and 30th November of this year there were 45 fatal Royal Air Force jet aircraft accidents; two of these were in Lincolnshire. And January 1954: Jet Aircraft (Accidents)Sir L. Ropner asked the Under-secretary of State for Air the number of fatal accidents to jet aircraft in the United Kingdom for the 12 months ended 31st December, 1953; and what was the number of personnel who were killed as a result of these accidents. Mr. Ward In the United Kingdom during 1953 there were 91 fatal accidents to Royal Air Force jet aircraft in which 112 members of the Royal Air Force lost their lives. These figures are slightly lower than the comparable figures for 1952, although the number of hours flown during the year was about one third greater. |
I arrived at Linton on Ouse in 1977, to begin BFTS very shortly after the station display pilot had crashed his Jet Provost on the airfield. He survived, but only just and he never flew again. A QFI crashed his JP3 into Gouthwaite Reservoir a few months later, losing his life. Sobering stuff to a young chap about to embark on a flying career.
Two years later I joined my first squadron at Odiham. Six weeks later we lost an aircraft, killing the three crew. The following year I arrived at the main gate at Gutersloh to begin my Germany tour only to see an ominous pall of black smoke rising from the airfield. One of the QFIs I flew with at Linton had just ejected from his crashing Harrier. Tragically, he didn’t survive. Before I left Gutersloh a Harrier Squadron Boss lost his life in a deployed site takeoff accident. About an hour later I was tasked to fly the station photographer over the crash site for the Board of Inquiry. Not nice, the wreckage was still smouldering. My best friend was killed in a Northern Ireland aircraft accident some years later. Sad times. |
In my time on the C130 we lost 6 ac, half to hostile action, including 2 with all on board killed. Military flying is a hazardous business but fortunately not as bad as it used to be.
When I first went to Biggin Hill I recall being told that there was a roughly 20% chance that we wouldn’t get to collect our pensions. The odds have clearly improved considerably since then and even they were presumably based on past trends. |
When I went through flying training in 1960 if there wasn't three pillars of smoke in the sky by Monday lunchtime the week hadn't really got started.
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The numbers quoted were not considered unusual for that era.
We were operating aircraft lacking Perf A performace and using training methods which were part of the problem - asymmetric practice with full shut-downs, rather than idle, being a classic example. |
I knew a National Service pilot who couldn't get out quick enough. He was fed up with having to formate on his boss in Meteor 7 with an iced up canopy, while his boss was enjoying the clear canopy of the pressurised Mk 8.
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These stories reminded me thatmy father told me of collecting bits of Sabre (f86)
all over East Anglia. I counted 20 in 1955. by 1956 the Hunter arrived. I was an Air Force brat aged 13&11/12ths at West Raynham when the 6 were lost. I remember being told that the Wig Commander Flying (?) was off the station that day. |
Not to be thought playing in a I can beat that game....but I can with the caveat that my story relates to combat action.
We frequently flew over a small valley between a pair of smallish sized ridges....not very high or long.....that had a nice flat pretty perfect makings of a perfect place to land a flight of helicopters.....too perfect as it turned out. It was called "34 Valley". The reason....seven derelict USMC H-34 helicopters were still there in staggered trail formation....where they had been shot to pieces during a Combat Assault earlier in the war and been abandoned due to their condition. The opposition understood what made for the perfect landing zone in their Area of Operations and once realizing the possibility prepared a warm welcome for our arrivals. Bear in mind...that was one day, one sortie of helicopters to a single location by one Squadron....no doubt there were other aircraft losses in the rest of the two Vietnams and Laos. Frequently we over flew the wrecks of helicopters and airplanes that had. been lost and left where they were found....far too many just disappeared along with their crews. Those were not the good old days at all. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...raft_from_1945
This is a very far from complete list: for example a total of 890 Gloster Meteors were lost in RAF service (145 of these crashes occurring in 1953 alone), resulting in the deaths of some 450 pilots. 13 August 1951 PG367 a Vickers Wellington Mk XVIII of No. 228 Operational Conversion Unit of RAF Leeming, collided with a Miles Martinet NR570 over Hudswell in North Yorkshire. An Air Cadet on the Wellington was given a parachute, told how to operate it and ordered to jump by the navigator, Flight Lieutenant John Quinton. The Air Cadet survived, but all eight aircrew aboard both planes died, when their aircraft hit the ground.[15] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Quinton The KING has been graciously pleased to approve the posthumous award of the GEORGE CROSS to Flight-Lieutenant John Alan Quinton, D.F.C. (11571), Royal Air Force, No. 228 Operational Conversion Unit. On August the 13th, 1951, Flight-Lieutenant Quinton was a Navigator under instruction in a Vickers Wellington aircraft which was involved in a mid-air collision. The sole survivor from the crash was an Air Training Corps Cadet who was a passenger in the aircraft, and he has established the fact that his life was saved by a supreme act of gallantry displayed by Flight-Lieutenant Quinton, who in consequence sacrificed his own life. Both Flight-Lieutenant Quinton and the Cadet were in the rear compartment of the aircraft when the collision occurred. The force of the impact caused the aircraft to break up and, as it was plunging towards the earth out of control, Flight-Lieutenant Quinton picked up the only parachute within reach and clipped it on to the Cadet's harness. He pointed to the rip-cord and a gaping hole in the aircraft, thereby indicating that the Cadet should jump. At that moment a further portion of the aircraft was torn away and the Cadet was flung through the side of the aircraft clutching his rip-cord, which he subsequently pulled and landed safely. Flight-Lieutenant Quinton acted with superhuman speed displaying the most commendable courage and self-sacrifice, as he well knew that in giving up the only parachute within reach he was forfeiting any chance of saving his own life. Such an act of heroism and humanity ranks with the very highest traditions of the Royal Air Force, besides establishing him as a very gallant and courageous officer, who, by his action, displayed the most conspicuous heroism. |
This makes me feel very fortunate to even exist. My father flew The F-80 in the Korean War, F-84, F-86, F-89, F-100, F-101, F-102, F-104, F-106 all in the eight years before I was born in 1959. Wow.
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Slightly off thread, but when the RAF went on the offensive over France in 42/43 they lost over 1800 aircraft and more pilots were killed than in the BoB IIRC.
Most of these losses were down to ground fire and nothing was achieved. It was a terrible waste of life and resources, deemed necessary by C in C Fighter Command, to go on the offensive. At least one pilot who was senior in rank ,Wing Leader etc ( may have been Johnnie Johnson), complained to Command, that they didn't mind mixing it with German fighters, but objected to be being put out of action ,or worse, by a German with a rifle. This fell on deaf ears and was a sorry time in Fighter Commands war. |
I lost my boss in a meteor 7 crash in Germany. He was checking another pilot who tried to overshoot on one below Vmca.
in terms of peacetime lives lost, the Shackleton crashes of the 50/60’s were tragic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...vro_Shackleton |
Originally Posted by Two's in
(Post 11088237)
Wow. That wasn't the holes in the cheese lining up, we decided to buy the entire cheese factory at that point.
My career, [such as it was], as a forecaster began in 1960. Numerical forecasting was in its infancy, indeed still in the womb. The basic qualifications were a handful of relevant A Levels and a thick skin. Suddenly, there we were, at the sharp end, being asked to predict cloud base to within a few hundred feet, weather events to within half an hour, and visibility to fit RED AMB YLO GRN WHT BLU.. I know that a number of colleagues could not hack the strain of being responsible, of being wrong. We felt every accident, every loss, dreadfully. The "state of the art" was simply not up to the demands. I think this was also true for the aircraft, and the training. Everybody sucked it up, that was how it was, the cold war was under way, and people put a brave face on things.. In retrospect I was incredibly lucky [yes, I worked my balls off to be accurate, but we were pig-ignorant] to never lose an aircraft or a crew on my watch.. Contrast forecasting in those days to the present, where major organisations make major decisions on the 5-day forecast. I was privileged to work with and for the pioneers of numerical weather forecasting, the heirs and successors to Alan Turing and his like. These men and women are the unsung heroes and heroines of astonishing progress. It must be the red wine. |
I remember we had two forecasters a Bovingdon in 1961. One was a pessimist, the other an optimist and if you could speak to both, taking the mid position of both their forecasts turned out to be pretty accurate!
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200+ accidents a day just in the USAAF in 1944 when training was at its height.
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We had a great weather-guesser at Gütersloh in the late 70s, who was very much trusted by us pilots. One Friday afternoon, he rang the squadron and advised that we all go to the bar. 30 minutes later we were hit with rain ice that turned the airfield into a skating rink, broke the tops off all the birch trees and locked people out of their cars by covering them in sheet ice.
Eh! Those were the days! Mog |
I recall arriving at West Raynham for a Canberra tour to be reminded that Norfolk weather could be a bit unpredictable.
It seems they lost a whole squadron of hunters from the DFtrLdrs course one morning through a suckers gap |
Originally Posted by Tinribs
(Post 11090221)
I recall arriving at West Raynham for a Canberra tour to be reminded that Norfolk weather could be a bit unpredictable.
It seems they lost a whole squadron of hunters from the DFtrLdrs course one morning through a suckers gap |
Originally Posted by Tinribs
(Post 11090221)
I recall arriving at West Raynham for a Canberra tour to be reminded that Norfolk weather could be a bit unpredictable.
It seems they lost a whole squadron of hunters from the DFtrLdrs course one morning through a suckers gap See post 9 |
Originally Posted by Mogwi
(Post 11090070)
We had a great weather-guesser at Gütersloh in the late 70s, who was very much trusted by us pilots. One Friday afternoon, he rang the squadron and advised that we all go to the bar. 30 minutes later we were hit with rain ice that turned the airfield into a skating rink, broke the tops off all the birch trees and locked people out of their cars by covering them in sheet ice.
Eh! Those were the days! Mog The tower front steps had a stone wall edging that gave a good view if one went to the high end, about 5 ft above ground. Unfortunately I discovered it had a slight slope. One gently accelerating Met man, condemned to a ski jump down 5 feet on to an ice sheet. I expect I went base over apex but you only remember the good bits. Rain ice every winter at least once. The Beetle was not the best choice. |
The above accident rates always crossed my mind regarding George Bush (jr).
(Not interested in a political discussion, just an observation) Younger Bush was accused of "hiding" from combat during the Viet Nam War while flying a F-102. It did cross my mind that maybe he really was an idiot, hiding out in the cockpit of a Century Series fighter always seemed a wee bit more at risk to one's pink arse than performing one of many other possible non-combat jobs around Saigon. My US civilian flight instructor barely survived his ejection from one. Sadly, 2 people on the ground did not. |
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