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-   -   Mach 1.6 Jaguar (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/641564-mach-1-6-jaguar.html)

NutLoose 11th Jul 2021 23:16

Mach 1.6 Jaguar
 
The new Aeroplane100 magazine has a fascinating large coverage of the Maritime Jag, who knew part of the military spec they had to meet was Mach 1.6 which they attained after a struggle.

Ascend Charlie 12th Jul 2021 02:29


Mach 0.16 which they attained after a struggle.
There, I fixed it for you.

Old-Duffer 12th Jul 2021 05:32

The Jaguar, in its early days, only became airborne because of the curvature of the earth.

OldDuffer

ORAC 12th Jul 2021 06:42

The claim that “the Jaguar is supersonic at all levels” was usually interpreted to mean in a dive.

NutLoose 12th Jul 2021 09:41

Seriously it was a requirement of the spec that it attained Mach 1.6 which it did eventually after a struggle, then was binned as it had shown it had attained the brief, various mods were introduced, I didn't realise the step in the elevon was to reduce strain on the actuators and it was smoothed out by about 1 inch during testing, the M was going to eventually have a different wing. Various differences included beefed up hook, straight longer stroke main legs and twin nose wheels, beefed up fuselage with fuselage mounted catapult attachments. It also said all Jags had the ability to carry centre line refuelling pods, did ours?

Ninthace 12th Jul 2021 10:59

I saw a French Navy Jag at Thurleigh having trouble getting out of the way of a Varsity. (To be fair, the Jag had its wheels down and the Varsity didn't)

Old-Duffer 12th Jul 2021 13:08

RAF Jaguars could and did carry a centre line pod and for GRANBY it had five hard points underneath and two on the roof. The over wing points were the subject of a UOR and required the most careful of drilling and as will be seen in many pics, carried an AIM9. The installation was made 'easier' as most single seat aircraft then in service still had the nuclear wiring installed and this was used.

The centre line hard point could take the big recce pod (for those Jags nodified for it) or a 1200 litre fuel tank. The inboard points could take 1200 litre tanks also and the 'tandem beam' dual bomb carrier. The outboard hard points were usually used for various bits of electronic wizardry.

It will be appreciated that there was some flexibility as to what could be carried and the mix of same but that's the basics.
The twin seat Jags used by the RAF had only one gun and no AAR, there were also a few single seaters which were not modified after being loaned to India and they ended up in the OCU, where AAR was not seen as important.

Old Duffer

NutLoose 12th Jul 2021 13:27

So they could do buddy buddy refuelling? I never knew.

The Jag could also carry Sidewinders on the inboard pylon too if I remember correctly ( or some could ) TBirds also lacked the rudder damper as it was deemed not neccessary for a trainer, stbd gunbay was filled with avionics displaced by the second cockpit...Though one of Mike Rondots last pictures looks like it has a rudder damper it on it, but it might be my eyes :)

ORAC 12th Jul 2021 13:37

Does being able to carry a pod or tank equate to being able to stream buddy tank hose or clearance trials having been performed?

Have the French or Indians ever cleared theirs?

Old-Duffer 12th Jul 2021 15:59

Sorry NutLoose,
I didn't mean to suggest that the Jag could do buddy - buddy refuelling because the RAF ones could not. When I said 'pod' I should have been more careful. The centre line could take the tandem beam, a recce pod (if modified) or a fuel tank. As I mentioned there was flexibility and there are some promotional photos around showing the variety of stuff that could be carried. For Granby, lots of things were cleared in a hurry, including some US weapons, the CRV7 rockets. Stealth paint, tiles in the intakes to reduce signature and all sorts of things with non jammable radios, improved RWR, various allowances re engine rating etc.

Post GRANBY, the battle was on to incorporate the improvements/changes but a couple of guys in the air staff nearly 'killed' the jet by offering to sale a load of cabs in exchange for the improvements. Treasury took the offered savings and then baulked at the exchange. The aircraft to be sold would have been the attrition replacements and those required to get the aircraft's fatigue consumption through to its (ever changing) out of service date. It was such an unnecessary cock up by people who should have known better - rant over.

Later things like a Vinten recce pod and other goodies came along and just after the new engine was approved, the jet was chopped!!!

Old Duffer

NutLoose 12th Jul 2021 16:11

I believe the spotty Jag was the only one to try out the uprated 106 engine for India.

ExAscoteer2 12th Jul 2021 16:38


Originally Posted by Old-Duffer (Post 11077526)
Sorry NutLoose,
For Granby, lots of things were cleared in a hurry, including some US weapons, the CRV7 rockets.

Surely the CRV7 is Canadian not American, standing as it does for Canadian Rocket Vehicle 7?

Old-Duffer 14th Jul 2021 08:18

ExAscoteer2,

You are correct, poor punctuation etc on my part!
Old Duffer

Haraka 14th Jul 2021 08:48

CRV7 . Once looked at in the early 80's at as potential armament for Wallis Type Autogiros.....

superplum 14th Jul 2021 11:24


Originally Posted by Old-Duffer (Post 11077526)
Sorry NutLoose,
I didn't mean to suggest that the Jag could do buddy - buddy refuelling because the RAF ones could not. When I said 'pod' I should have been more careful. The centre line could take the tandem beam, a recce pod (if modified) or a fuel tank. As I mentioned there was flexibility and there are some promotional photos around showing the variety of stuff that could be carried. For Granby, lots of things were cleared in a hurry, including some US weapons, the CRV7 rockets. Stealth paint, tiles in the intakes to reduce signature and all sorts of things with non jammable radios, improved RWR, various allowances re engine rating etc.

Post GRANBY, the battle was on to incorporate the improvements/changes but a couple of guys in the air staff nearly 'killed' the jet by offering to sale a load of cabs in exchange for the improvements. Treasury took the offered savings and then baulked at the exchange. The aircraft to be sold would have been the attrition replacements and those required to get the aircraft's fatigue consumption through to its (ever changing) out of service date. It was such an unnecessary cock up by people who should have known better - rant over.

Later things like a Vinten recce pod and other goodies came along and just after the new engine was approved, the jet was chopped!!!

Old Duffer

O-D

Pedant point only - "The centre line could take the tandem beam, a recce pod (if modified) or a fuel tank." Not tandem beam; the pylon itself contained the 3 ERUs for stores carriage Front and Rear (119) for bombs etc and Centre (120) for tanks, pods and 115 for "Germany" tasking.

mike rondot 19th Jul 2021 20:17

Orac
 

Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11077242)
The claim that “the Jaguar is supersonic at all levels” was usually interpreted to mean in a dive.

Perhaps you should not make comments like that unless you have flown the jet. Repeating the uninformed snipes of others is not helpful to the general appreciation of a fine aircraft.

charliegolf 19th Jul 2021 20:55


Originally Posted by mike rondot (Post 11081510)
Perhaps you should not make comments like that unless you have flown the jet. Repeating the uninformed snipes of others is not helpful to the general appreciation of a fine aircraft.

Agreed. I've been told that being sent Jags (whether you wanted it or not) meant you were very close to the top of the league at role disposal time. I guess that's why actual Jag pilots don't feel the need to defend it on here?

CG

ORAC 19th Jul 2021 21:45


Perhaps you should not make comments like that unless you have flown the jet. Repeating the uninformed snipes of others is not helpful to the general appreciation of a fine aircraft.
It reflects the general appreciation of the aircraft, as opposed to that of those that flew it. Hurtful perhaps, but the general perception in its early years.

p.s. I know you flew and loved it and have many of your prints.

NutLoose 19th Jul 2021 22:15

Seen his new T bird one Orac, the end of the line.

https://www.collectair.co.uk/coltish...-the-line.html

I must admit being on them they were very reliable, just not my ideal posting, I applied for Germany to go with the Chinooks and ended up on Jags, with no course, not even a Ground handling one.

Coming off 7 years of Helicopters, Wings and things and seats that go bang were not something I’d seen since training, I was then sent straight on detachment and left to man the engine desk while everyone else forked off to run a Jag out of contact across the airfield……….

The Winco then had a starting problem and I was sent out to deal with it, standing on the ladder he showed me that the micro turbo wouldn’t spool up the engine sufficiently to start and asked me what I thought…… now bearing in mind I’d been on the Jag about a week, didn’t even know where the micro turbo was and had no courses, I thought I’d give him a clear concise engineers diagnostic reply, that would be both informative and accurate and leave him in no doubt about my ability to rectify the situation……..

Fork knows…. Didn’t appear to go down well….

He never did like me after that, ironically when the Sqn folded I was still stood up as the final crew on QRA for about a week, we were met by the Staish and the Wing Co as we came off Q and given Champagne, the Staish telling the Wing Co to drive me home afterwards… that was a trip in total silence!


..

Cat Techie 20th Jul 2021 12:15


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11077313)
Seriously it was a requirement of the spec that it attained Mach 1.6 which it did eventually after a struggle, then was binned as it had shown it had attained the brief, various mods were introduced, I didn't realise the step in the elevon was to reduce strain on the actuators and it was smoothed out by about 1 inch during testing, the M was going to eventually have a different wing. Various differences included beefed up hook, straight longer stroke main legs and twin nose wheels, beefed up fuselage with fuselage mounted catapult attachments. It also said all Jags had the ability to carry centre line refuelling pods, did ours?

Elevon? If you worked on then you would know they are called tailplanes. If totally correct, they are tailplane halves. Not Tailerons either, Clean T bird at attitude was capable of Mach 1.3, but by the time production was happening, Mach number of 1.6 was actually never going to be needed. The M was a mistake even to be considered. Jaguar was never suitable for a carrier. The cancelled jets, of course, were built instead as AdA A kites.


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