https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e74d7efd67.png

What are we looking at Orac?

Nightstalkers Dont Quit
 

Can't believe what a nasty, selfish and inward looking old man Biden's turning out to be. He portrays someone who would happily discard any and all of the supporting NATO forces at Kabul if he thought it would enable US personnel to make a clean break. Sad that it has come to this; wouldn't be surprised if the Paras' CO and in-situ RAF commander are now having to watch the US troops like a hawk to see if they are preparing to do a sneaky runner.

Although it is clearly chaotic at the airport, at least it is sort of stable while they are still doing the NEO part - God knows what it is going to like as US/ other NATO they start withdrawing their evac. forces and collapsing the perimeter. So much depends on the 'goodwill' and capacity of the Taliban but I've got a horrible feeling that things are going to get a lot more desperate. Hope their is some kind of plan-B though I can't imagine what that might be, unless troops are successfully thinned-out so that smaller A/C such as C-130/Chinooks can take the last ones out to a staging point

Obviously not a "Stealth " Blackhawk then ?......... Haven't they kept that a good secret for over a decade now ! :)
(Hat ,coat etc.......)

Reference my comment at post #398 about the US forces complaining UK performing rescue operations outside the airport risked endangering evacuation operations. From the American press….

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...ng-us-look-bad

US general tells British special forces: Stop rescuing people in Kabul, you're making us look bad

Hmm, strange report. After the statement (admittedly full of weasel words) from the 18th that no such request was made, the journalist carries on as if to ignore the denial: not even using conditional language like 'such a show of tension would reflect three factors'....

I’m taking “denial of the central thrust”, to mean they deny it was said because it made them look bad. Which leads into the other reasons mentioned in the report - including via the links such as the one below.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...ail-high-risks

How to rub it in 101

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9147407b6.jpeg

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...ous-wwii-photo

80,000 Taliban to hold a country the size of Afghanistan is going to be a big ask, especially with the amount of equipment and arms that have no doubt been squirrelled away by those ex forces and those opposing them. That is one thing that has probably changed since the first time they did, especially as it’s being reported they have dragged units in from the countryside to take Kabul.

The Taliban have become master trolls - another here:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....23f87459e3.jpg
(for those who may not follow US Politics, Biden is a big ice cream fan, with frequent social media photos of him eating an ice cream cone)

The US is now telling American civilians to avoid the airport.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58293832

You couldn’t make this up, I feel sorry for the guys on the ground trying to make sense out of the cr*p coming out of Washington.

Biden in the early days had my respect and admiration after coco the clown lost the election, but he is coming across in this as a senile old man.

He will NEVER be able to request the help of other nations again after he pulled the rug out from under them and leaving them hanging out to dry, even now they do not know how long they have in Kabul, the trust has gone.

Warning order just issued for US Civil Reserve Air Fleet - first time was for Op DESERT SHIELD - second time for Op IRAQI FREEDOM.

I'm hoping this is a move to buy time while they come up with a plan and the resources to go get them, but I'm not optimistic - the actions of this administration and the military leaders over the last six months have been a clown show (but I bet all our armed forces are up to speed on the diversity and sensitivity training :rolleyes:)

Biden's track record on foreign policy has been dismal for a long time - but this is an all time low. And Biden can't pin this on Trump - Trump may have set the wheels in motion for the withdrawal, but all the clown show moves have happened on his watch. Besides, Biden has reversed nearly every Trump policy in place when Biden took office.

Crikey - I feel for the guys and girls on the ground at the airport.
Even though the SOAR is there (thank you Orac) and there are AC-130s circling - can't help but get a sense of Mogadishu - good guys encircled by a whole lot of bad guys.
Even if the bad guys are playing friendly for the moment.

Rory Steward, former international development secretary, made interesting observations about the US withdrawal.
That the Afghan army were left without air cover
Afghan army had no maintainance capacity of helicopters
No US soldier been killed in previous 18 months or UK soldier for longer.
US keep troops in South Korea, why not Afghanistan, given the low cost of 2500 troops?



Mjb

Tony Blair having his say. Not sure if his views carry any weight any more.

Scroll up to post #356 for a clue

Bliar?

Busted flush - no-one ever listens to him any more - spends his time making himself richer and richer

Who would have thought it.- An ex Socialist Prime Minister of the United Kingdom calling the decisions of a Democratic President of the United States 'inbecilic'.

Already posted at #396. I comment at #397 on his strange unwillingness to address the cost to Afghan forces of fighting the Taliban: about 10,000 dead per year, fighting to defend a corrupt government which didn't pay or feed them, and only controlled the district centres. Why would they keep doing that indefinitely?

As to the points you highlight:

- The Afghans asked for more Mi-8s, which they could already maintain themselves, and instead had contractor-supported Blackhawks foisted upon them. This was widely criticised at the time but happened anyway. Way to go, military-industrial complex :hmm:

- No Western soldiers have been killed for 18 months because that was the one watertight commitment the Taliban made in its February 2020 deal with Trump and Pompeo. They had already threatened a resumption of attacks if the withdrawal deadline wasn't met. All the other clauses of the deal were loose enough for the Taliban to keep fighting Afghan forces and put in place the network of deals which eventually brought the government down. There was no incentive in the Doha agreement for either the Taliban or the individual kleptocrats in Kabul to actually reach a power-sharing deal.

- Surprising that a man of Rory Stewart's intellect can't see that Afghanistan is not like South Korea. The US did not face an armed insurgency in Korea; a ceasefire is not the same as an active conflict. Troops live sustainable, normal lives there with their families. It's a clear strategic interest for the US to contain China's influence on the opposite shore of their common ocean, and to provide a flank for their treaty commitment to the Japanese. By contrast Afghanistan is just one of several places worldwide that could host terror groups, and in any case the Chinese and Russians have no interest in allowing such groups to take root in their own back yards. Let them deal with it.

I fear we keep repeating our mistakes of the past. I wonder when we will ever learn,

Afghanistan
 

It appears to me, from reading this thread and many others like it, that in order to declare oneself a genius and master of military history and doctrine all one has to do is to point out that Britain (and other nations throughout history) have ventured into Afghanistan in the past.

We all know this. This is a military forum and, besides, Wikipedia has told us anyway.

Unless there is something Earth shattering and can clearly be demonstrated to have been foretold (I’m thinking the Mayans and 2012 - although thankfully that was wrong) can we stop pointing out, in a pseudo-intellectual way that Britain has, in fact, fought a war in Afghanistan before?

BV

BV, quite. The "graveyard of empires" trope only dates from 2001 and has been widely debunked in academia. And no-one ever seems to mention that the British Empire achieved its strategic goal in Afghanistan, which was preventing Russian interference in India. Too many confuse tactical defeat with strategic failure.

As for Blair decrying the sloganeering of "ending the forever wars", what did he think of the "Global War on Terror"? Incorrigible.

That was never going to happen, the USA do not build the MI-8, so were never going to buy someone else’s product and not support their homegrown industries.

Exactly, it's just another example of how conflicting objectives and strategic myopia in western capitals hamstrung the campaign right from the start. Principle of war #1: selection and maintenance of the aim. If the US was serious about winning in Afghanistan, it would've held its nose and struck a deal for some Hips.

Which the U.K. did I believe to train their Mi-8 pilots.

Some happier news for a change, to boost the morale:

Delivery
 

Honest question:

What will be the citizenship of that child? Afghan? German/EU? American?

BV

Excellent news, I wonder what passports they will eventually hold.

Great minds think alike Bob ;)

Is Ramstien counted as US territory? If not Afghan / German until naturalised in the USA?

Not german (none of the EU countries grant nationality to sky babies AFAIK). So most likely afghan, unless U.S. allows the use of aircraft registration country option.

Don't know if anyone has seen or posted this but it was posted by Bruce Cromptom, yesterday from a American friend. Just thought it a good follow on from the earlier post about the American asking the British army to stop making them look bad....


"
We’re all witnessing the harrowing stories coming out of the chaos happening in Afghanistan right now.
I have been passed on this message via a good friend of mine who is ex Para reg.
On reading this, I’ve felt compelled to share as its the type of thing that can be left out of from our regular news channels and it’s is important for people to know.
Please read below. And know all our hearts go out to the people stranded and fearing for your lives.
If anyone has any links to specific charities that are offering help to the humanitarian disaster happening out in Afghanistan right now, please feel free to share in the comments below-

‘I’m not on Facebook but my wife is. The following post was put up by John Hanson who was a US officer attached to 2 Para for two years and deployed to Iraq with us - and other places. He even has a Reg tattoo on his chest.

It’s worth a read.

“And through all the horror of what we have witnessed in Aghanistan these last few days, today we learn that our NATO allies were never notified of our withdrawal while their forces in country were over 8000 men and women to our 2500, which are now all in jeopardy and remain in jeopardy while our embassy was evacuated and theirs have not. How does a faithful ally leave 8000 allies hanging in the balance with a decision of this magnitude while we pull people out in advance namely most of our aviation technicians, intel specialists and our glorious embassy staff who left and now are being reconstructed to fix the mistake? How do we make a decision to run without telling our allies who frankly have more human capital at stake? What insanity or cowardice is that?

How do we allow my former battalion where I proudly served from 1999 to 2001, over two years in the UK, consisting of 600 brave men from 2d Battalion, The Parachute Regiment, bravely venture into Kabul to rescue the Queens subjects while our force of now 6000 soldiers and marines strong says it isn’t possible - watch the Pentagon press conference today for evidence on exactly that topic since everything seems to be questioned these days.

My brave friends from 2 Para are doing what I would both want to do and expect from my government. I know the paratroopers of 2 Para are scared and sky news reported last night that many of them cried themselves to sleep overnight at the airport because babies had been thrown up over the walls of the airport and those babies had caught up in the razor wire and could not be saved.

Those same British paratroopers took matters into their own hands today as I mentioned, venturing into Kabul to secure British subjects. While my Army secures the airport. I love my Army, my fellow Rangers and paratroopers, but tonight my pride stands with my at risk brothers in 2 Para and my brothers in the UK SAS and other special forces. Because while I will always be American, faithfully, I will always stand with action vs inaction when it comes to the political will to execute in a time of crisis.

Thank you to the few, the men of 2 Para for keeping my hopes alive and to the 6000 men and women of the US task force, we hope you inculcate this example as one you can live up to.

Just in case any of you were confused...”
"

Blair a socialist??? That will be news to a lot of people, including most of the modern day labour party.

I offer a small but important correction to what some of you have been writing. Those who are familiar with Afghanistan know that the word "Afghani" refers only to the Afghan currency. People are not Afghanis; there was no "Afghani empire", etc. The people are "Afghans". Please don't consider this as pedantic as it certainly is not. No more than if you thought I was being pedantic if I referred to an American as an Americani. It's simply incorrect. Live and learn. :)

We did purchase and supply Mi 17’s, quite a number of them in fact, however the politics that subsequently followed, the way in which the various contracts were awarded, the amount of dollars involved, the behind the scenes infighting of “the 17 can’t do this, the 60 can” by the US manufacturer, backed up by various Senators, the “punish the Russians for x, y and z” infractions around that time, led to a ban on any Russian aviation products, from helo’s to consumables to overhauls.
Yet certain programs managed to skirt around the edges, with a blind eye turned multiple times.

in my opinion, we did a vast disservice to the Afghan Air Force, it was perfectly capable of operating and maintaining the Russian equipment, it had done so for years prior.
However, in the aviation arena, and others, we purposely led them down the road of the latest/greatest, a path to failure right from the start, why, sad to say, money.
There are a multitude of stories regarding the above, a couple of them that would absolutely dumbfound folks if they ever came to light, however, years have passed, best let sleeping dogs lay.

As I was saying….

https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...l#post11097482

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-cash-runs-low

Afghans face economic ruin as prices rise and cash runs low

One does wonder how a bunch of AK-47 toting true believers are going to keep the power, sewage and water systems running for a city of 4MM plus.
Sadly, Pol Pot showed that it was quite possible to solve that problem...
Meanwhile, Europe can relax, there won't be millions of Afghan refugees, they will die along the way.

Estimates of what they now have material wise

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/21/p...tan/index.html

I do wonder if it’s truly over post evacuation or will there be some follow ons to remove some of the remaining assets from the equation. Some items like aircraft etc.