Russia caught stealing NATO and EU secrets in Bulgaria
 

See link

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/24/e...longstory_pool

Remember - security is not a dirty word.

“Crevice. That’s a dirty word.”

Salute!

Good grief.

What's new?

..Gums sends..

Like Gums I'm shocked! Shocked!!

So is fescalised portion

Not long ago, the US secret services bugged the cell phones of German ministers and also of Chancellor Merkel. And the US claims to be our allies and friends.

Nations don’t have friends, only interests.

Not long ago, the German secret services were spying on the US. And they claim to be allies and friends.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.spie...53592-amp.html

It still amazes me how the Germans are willing to make themselves economically dependent on Russia with their gas pipeline.

Everyone keeps an eye on the Germans. They have form.....

Salute!

I would bet this thread would get more attention if we saw the blueprints of the latest U.S. hypersonic attack plane that the spies got and spread about, ya think?

..Gums...

They already are, but are paying a double toll, as Ukraine charges hefty transit fees on the gas in the pipeline crossing its territory.
NordStream simplifies the fee structure, at Ukraine's expense.

There are only two rules at my auld school .
Rule 1 : Do not get caught
Rule 2 : See Rule 1

A few years back, Ukraine also diverted very large volumes destined for Germany because Russia has ceased supplying to Ukraine until they paid their bills.Security of supply as well as price.

wasn't that because the Russians had hiked the price to the Ukrainians by about a factor of 3?

In the 1990s, I had an officer on my staff who was based in France and the French insisted he had a top security clearance, which was provided.

At a social event some months later, my French counterpart thanked me for sorting the clearance so quickly and I replied that I was surprised they thought it necessary. He smiled, gave me a pat on the shoulder and said: "We know he will spy on us - we just want to make sure it's only for you".

Old Duffer

No

It was about non payment for gas which escalated. There was also a desire that a company controlled by a number of individuals of Ukrainian descent were removed from any connection with Gas transit.

A not surprising action considering the blackmail that was exerted and the individuals raking it in at the expense of Ukraine.

Countries want energy supply uninterrupted, having an unstable corrupt regime in the middle who can hold whoever to ransom does not help.

US of course wants to sell it's LNG in Europe, NS2 pretty much eliminates that as why pay for more expensive LNG when you don't need to.

.......nor does it help if it's the same at the start of the Supply Chain!!!! :ok:

Russia has played this one very well if you ask me. Once the supply is separated, you can turn the taps off to one but keep the flow going to the other, or increase prices to one but not the other, or ...... oh, the games that could be played!

Of course, just my opinion............ :E

True is any such supply dependency situation.
Europe could pay the cost of greater energy independence, but has not chosen to do so.

Indeed! Short term financial benefit is often (erm, that should be "is always"!) more attractive to voters than long-term stability/security and Politicians know that. And Merkel in particular is not renowned for "thinking things through"! Ah well ........ :rolleyes:

Russia has only ever acted against Ukraine who were stealing gas and not paying for it.

Strange nobody cares much about the Middle east powers actions and policies weven when they haev openly held the west hostage on energy supplies. Oh wait they chuck millions into the coffers of politcal parties via lobbying, sponsor terrorism but lets overlook that because of the money.

Hiya racedo! Good to chat! At the risk of continuing this Thread Drift, we have double standards are everywhere! No-one could argue that.

Re the "they {Middle East} chuck millions into the coffers of politcal parties via lobbying" lets take D Trump. His bacon was saved financially decades ago through Russian money thru what was initially an accident! The Kremlin could not believe it's luck when DT "came good" given they'd never even set out to engineer that. Fate played right into their hands! True, he was rather like a fire cracker - as likely to burn his friends as his enemies!!! Russian money appears everywhere - as do $ and £ and Yuan! To name but a few. :ok:

"..... sponsor terrorism but lets overlook that because of the money."? Almost! Try "oil" - and defence contracts!!!!!!!! And maybe they help stabilise the Yemen as they are "on site". Absolutely! If Mugabe had sat on oil, the world would not have walked away and abandoned the majority of Zimbabweans as they did. But to make Putin out as a Mother Theresa is slightly overlooking a few things. Again, in many ways, I believe Putin is an "accident of fate" too. I wonder if he ever had aspirations/the slightest idea he'd end up where he is when he was in the KGB? But I bet he's great at taking advantage of where he is at any given time - like all Politicians!

The real discussion point is, in this world of double-standards and back-stabbing, who do you distrust slightly less? Mmmm! Answers on a postcard.......????!!!

No world leader. I will do everything to ensure my kids never join up to have their blood spilt on a foreign soil so some sleazy politician or military leader gets richer.

Now when it comes to defending the home from an invader that is different but the oft claims of politicians that we defend the homeland by going and destroying weaker countrys who have no beef with us wears a bit thin after a while.

"Amen!" to your Point 1 and, as for your Point 2, quite agreed! What tangled webs are weaved on our behalf .... sadly! Ho hum! :hmm:

Back on topic I'm never sure quite how much good all the spying actually does

Lots of cases where something vital was missed and even more when something may have been spotted but ignored

It is a game played by both sides. Website Secret Bases got abused decade ago for daring to highlight all the UK bases that were not on OS Maps, UK's head military guy was asked "Is this not treasonous behaviour", he just laughed and said "I fully expect that overseas powers know pretty much every base we have, it has only been secret from those who pay for it".

In many cases looking at online tender documents, Govt publications of jobs, mentioned in military promotions, new power lines going to places with zero population etc get focus. Bit like more cars visiting hospitals in Wuhan last year was seen as a sign that a sharp uptake in people attending hospital during covid. No different from a pub in a military town where all of a sudden the Friday night regulars don't appear, once maybe coincidence but same happening in other places and lots of delivery trucks appearing.

It is like "Seagulls following the trawler, expecting sardines to be thrown", the value in any piece of information is being able to tie it into a jigsaw and occasions it is coincidence, like 2 Russian army units doing mega exercises, while RuAF are carrying extensive preparations on a base 2000 miles away and 2 boomers have put to sea. Yup a sign but Army could be new commanders replacing poor ones, RuAF expecting new Air Force head to visit and the 2 boomers are because one is 2 weeks overdue leaving. But Kremlin bosses still heading to their Dachas and Embassys are quiet.

A "spy" being able to know that 2 army commanders dismissed for indiscipline and it has taken 6 months for replacements hence bring units up to expectations is what is valuable or the new AF boss making a known visit to a base.

Tony Geraghty in Brixmis book highlighted how NATO bosses would be fretting over an attack while his guys would see no evidence as the cogs were away or equipment was not moving.

Or, as in the infamous Able Archer 83 "incident", Warsaw pact Intel was interpreted by the Soviets as suggesting to them that a Nuclear strike was becoming more likely but then the NATO Intel picked up on the increased preparations out East but suspected that Able Archer was the likely cause so did not respond thereby preventing further escalation.

As racedo says, a game played by all sides - at some considerable level of investment - and is all part of a jigsaw! So, some people somewhere, see value in it. I have been reading some recently declassed docs on the U2 "spy flights" which are fascinating and also a couple of books on BRIXMIS. Spent many hours idly watching the std Russian "trawler" bobbing around near the Task Group. Bet they even have me recorded! Now that was exciting for them ..... not!

Unnecessary? Sadly, human nature. In my village, if you want to know anything about anyone there are 3 ladies of a "certain age" who, if you ask any one of them, will have the full Intel on just about anything going on. GCHQ/NSA/SVR/etc could learn a thing or two from these 3!

It was many villages who had a group of elderly women who decided the future of the village. Young buck 1 wants to get with young fawn 1 but the ladies keep them as far apart as possible and one hooks up with someone else from another village. Supposedly different parents but reality same dad and few knew this.

Young man gets with lassie from another village to keep the genes strong and bless he thinks it was just chance he came with someone to pick something up from the village and lassie was there.

In many places they also acted as the mid wives. The child born disabled or likely to be a burden sadly never made it through their 1st day.

Somehow mankind believes it is clever and the old ways were ancient and laughable.