TopAces F-16s
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-i...ces-1001351073
Israel in talks to sell F-16s to Canada's Top Aces Israel's Ministry of Defense is conducted negotiations with Canadian company Top Aces, sources close to the matter have informed "Globes," for the sale of the Israel Air Force's IAF) 29 surplus F-16 fighter jets - with each jet selling for between $3 million and $4 million. General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcons were delivered to Israel in the early 1980s and over the past decade have been gradually phased out of service...... The Ministry of Defense's International Defense Cooperation Directorate (SIBAT) is responsible for the talks with Montreal-based defense contractor Top Aces, which specializes in the procurement of older fighter aircraft, which are used in training as "staged enemy aircraft) by air forces and navies. In this case, the F-16s could serve in maneuvers for the US Air Force, which signed a contract with Top Aces last year. The company also provides training services to the air forces of Canada and Germany and owns a fleet of SkyHawk and F-16 aircraft and has conducted more than 80,000 hours of training worldwide. |
Top Aces have been talking about this for about 5 years now. They keep promising that’s it’s ‘just about to happen’ but it never has. I don’t know the truth data on it, but many believe it’s just a marketing ploy.
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and owns a fleet of SkyHawk and F-16 aircraft |
Originally Posted by Avtur
(Post 10937742)
Typo or contradicting?
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Same ****, different year. To quote a good friend at the time in a certain US Embassy here in Europe; "If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it's Canadian."
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7f82ccedd5.jpg |
In this case the quack came from an Israeli business news source stating talks were underway between the company and the Israeli Ministry of Defense's International Defense Cooperation Directorate (SIBAT), and quoting prices.
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Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 10937950)
In this case the quack came from an Israeli business news source stating talks were underway between the company and the Israeli Ministry of Defense's International Defense Cooperation Directorate (SIBAT), and quoting prices.
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With the rumors going around the buyer of the RAAF F-18's wants out after not securing any contracts maybe they might be up for them or more to the RCAF
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
(Post 10938408)
ORAC, that’s because it’s always been the Israeli F-16s that Top Aces have been trying to buy. I believe they are the PEACE MARBLE jets; Block 10 A/B models so super early models that are quite run down. As Duck Dodgers has pointed out, they’ve been trying to spin this story for years but it’s never happened.
As for the Block 10, PEACE MARBLE 1 jets they are broadly equivalent to a Block 15 OCU with UP performed on them too. Doug Masters would be quite comfortable in that cockpit. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2319e198cc.png |
The problem is not with Top Aces, the issue is they have been waiting forever to get clearance from the US to buy the airplanes. Its not dishonest marketing.
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Originally Posted by monkey416
(Post 10939025)
The problem is not with Top Aces, the issue is they have been waiting forever to get clearance from the US to buy the airplanes. Its not dishonest marketing.
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Originally Posted by monkey416
(Post 10939025)
The problem is not with Top Aces, the issue is they have been waiting forever to get clearance from the US to buy the airplanes. Its not dishonest marketing.
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Which company was it about 10 years ago that was offering Flankers and double- digit SAMs while operating out of Iceland? They seemed like a credible bunch
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Originally Posted by Gordon Brown
(Post 10939185)
Which company was it about 10 years ago that was offering Flankers and double- digit SAMs while operating out of Iceland? They seemed like a credible bunch
ECA Program were the firm in question; the Su-27s were meant to be coming from Belarus. They had big ambitions according to some reports If I've done my googling properly, the firm (and if it was a different one, one of the directors had the same name as the Flanker-purchasing business) went into liquidation about a year after the story in the link above appeared. |
The only reason they dont have the airplanes already is that the airplanes needed to be released by the US government, which required a US contract first. Chicken and egg.
Read the US government has been cock blocking them for years to protect American bidders. |
Originally Posted by monkey416
(Post 10939297)
The only reason they dont have the airplanes already is that the airplanes needed to be released by the US government, which required a US contract first. Chicken and egg.
Read the US government has been cock blocking them for years to protect American bidders. |
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
(Post 10939758)
The Americans may well have been blocking them. That’s not the discussion here. The discussion is that Top Aces have been economical with the truth. They don’t have the jets and they’ve never had the jets, yet their marketing is all about the jets; they’ve now lost credibility over this. If they just pulled all the marketing until the deal is through then announced it I don’t think anyone would have a problem.
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Originally Posted by DuckDodgers
(Post 10940072)
The business problem with the approach taken, beside the obvious, is everyone knows your solution to a market segment by signalling look at our bright-shiny 1978-1980 FMS year build aircraft. Furthermore, the potential caveats on TPT approval by DoS, DoD/DTSA may well state for CONUS use only which could cause further reputational damage.
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https://www.skiesmag.com/news/top-ac...ary-air-fleet/
Top Aces secures approval for F-16 adversary air fleet Top Aces has received approval to acquire and import up to 29 F-16 aircraft from an undisclosed country, the company confirmed Thursday. The Dorval, Que.-based air combat training firm said in a statement that the Block 10 aircraft would be upgraded with its open architecture mission system and offered as a platform to support United States Department of Defense training beginning in 2021. While Top Aces would not yet confirm the country of origin, Israeli media on Dec. 2 claimed the seller is the Israeli Defense Ministry. According to CTech, the F-16s are 1980s-era aircraft that were retired as of 2016, and the Defense Ministry’s export agency is overseeing the deal...... If the deal with Israel is confirmed, the F-16 jets would be added to Top Aces’ current fleets of Dornier Alpha Jets and Douglas A-4 Skyhawks, and initially based at the F-16 Center of Excellence near the company’s U.S. headquarters in Mesa, Ariz. In October 2019, the company received an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity (IDIQ) contract that will allow it to compete with Air USA, Airborne Tactical Advantage Company, Blue Air Training, Coastal Defense, Draken International, and Tactical Air Support for adversary air services at 12 U.S. Air Force bases. Under the US$6.4 billion Combat Air Force Contracted Air Support (CAF CAS) contract, the Air Force can solicit individual tenders from those seven companies for advanced adversary air (ADAIR) capabilities as required, at 12 USAF bases. The contract runs until October 2024 and is estimated to involve between 40,000 to 50,000 flying hours...... |
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
(Post 10939146)
It is dishonest marketing. They don’t have the aircraft and yet they’re consistently pushing as if they do. It’s been going on for years now and it’s always just around the corner. They know the game, it’s marketing spin.
I'd have thought that this early model F16s would have been super-easy to acquire, and that Uncle Sam would have no problems with them moving between allies? |
Originally Posted by dead_pan
(Post 10942105)
Hmm not really, its a tactic as old as trade itself - lining up a customer or two before you have to fork out on the goods. If you've done any trade brokerage in your time you'd have done this all the time.
I'd have thought that this early model F16s would have been super-easy to acquire, and that Uncle Sam would have no problems with them moving between allies? I think you’ve argued your own point in your second paragraph; you’d have thought it was easy to move the jets around. It’s not and that’s been the problem and they’ve been caught out. |
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
(Post 10942110)
Hmmm not really, it’s dishonest marketing. Just because others do it doesn’t make it right. This has nothing to do with trade brokerage or the sentiment you speak of. They’ve been telling customers they’ve got F-16s, done deal, no problem, we will give you demonstrations - when it quite simply isn’t the case. For reference, see the brochure Duck Dodgers presented.
I think you’ve argued your own point in your second paragraph; you’d have thought it was easy to move the jets around. It’s not and that’s been the problem and they’ve been caught out. This behaviour pretty much par for the course in aerospace/defence - I've encountered all kinds of shysters and bluffers at the likes of DSEi, Farnborough, Le Bourget etc. It didn't take much to uncover their BS back then, and will be even easier now. All any savvy customer would need to do would be to request a demo, and their whole story would have collapsed. If any were mad enough to pay for a demo etc without some rudimentary due diligence, more fool them. Anyhow it looks as if the deal may finally be done so lets see if they can do any business with their shiny old F16s. |
Originally Posted by dead_pan
(Post 10942178)
Anyhow it looks as if the deal may finally be done so lets see if they can do any business with their shiny old F16s.
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En route to Mesa
Hot off the press lol : the Former IDF/AF birds are en Route to Mesa laughingly watching the old western movie 3:10 to Yuma so thought aptly 3:10 to Mesa.
cheers https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d4234d735.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9e714c98b.jpeg |
So, finally Top Aces/ DADS delivers....
A third Gen fighter, 8 years later than promised, in the back of a former Soviet transport aircraft. Oh, the irony.... |
I will say congratulations and caveat it with a few words noting the TPT insisted on removal of the IDF technical mods along with some interesting provisos. The hard work now begins for them to make what is comparably a Block 15 OCU jet into something that is useful; one hopes they start with replacing the original APG-66 which might just about get you a contact at 30nm against a manoeuvring F-15, certainly wouldn't get a TQC until about 20nm. It's going to be challenging for them especially given timelines, and it certainly won't be cheap, however I do sincerely wish them the very best of luck.
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Slightly digressing it was great to see their Scooter again few weeks back at RIAT (my pic below from Saturday)
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c965268c3c.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....038b361e93.jpg and sadly looks like they fall victims of ransomware https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/05...omware-attack/ I believe they have all migrated to the Marineflieger Nordholz base now cheers |
Originally Posted by chopper2004
(Post 11275043)
Slightly digressing it was great to see their Scooter again few weeks back at RIAT (my pic below from Saturday)
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c965268c3c.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....038b361e93.jpg and sadly looks like they fall victims of ransomware https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/05...omware-attack/ I believe they have all migrated to the Marineflieger Nordholz base now cheers |
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