A couple of questions
 

Hi all,

Yes, a couple of questions, the first is, were the Hunter Squadrons in Germany dedicated to the Day Fighter role or were they equally balanced with Close Air Support duties.
Second question, the AMS or ASM programme referred to the construction of Hardened Aircraft Shelters, but does anyone know what the initials stood for?

Many thanks,

FB

Aircraft / Airfield Survivability Measures??

Germany Hunters before my time.

Many thanks Timelord,

My belief is until they were decimated from 1957 onwards, especially as they were particularly numerous, the Hunter Squadrons of 2 TAF, were both Day Interceptor and G/A Fighter with equal demand. If some can confirm or correct?

FB

Airfield Survival Measures according to the files about the HAS construction in the National Archives.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ival+measures+

The Hunters in Germany prior to the Sandys white paper were all Air Defence, no ground attack role as far as I know. As air defenders they (and the Javelins) were replaced by the 2 Lightning sqns, 19 & 92, which moved from Leconfield to Gutersloh. No Hunter FGA9s were based in Germany, but 1 (& probably 54) Sqn from West Raynham did exercise the role there - it was one of the war plan options.

The final Hunters in RAF Germany were FR10s, 2 & 4 Sqns, at Gutersloh, from about 1960 to about 1970, then replaced by Harrier sqns.

This document covers the RAF in Germany in quite some depth, only mention I've seen in it about Hunters is in the Day Fighter role (mostly axed in post 1957 and what was left then replaced by the Javelin) plus the fighter recce role which were replaced by the Harrier. There was no real role for the GA Hunters between 1957 and 1968 due to the NATO Tripwire "can of instant sunshine chuck fest" war plan of that period.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documen...in-Germany.pdf

Much appreciated Mainjafad, one more qickly, can you recall what TDS stood for in relation to the Strike Squadrons, at Bruggen and Laarbruch?

FB

Have a read under RAF Jever re wing etc, then the Sqns and the rest of the site, it’s a cracking compilation.

Jever Steam Laundry - Home Page

Having never served in RAFG, I wouldn't have a clue and the closest I got to working with anything nuclear was helping finish off a operators control simulator for the Weapon Storage System fitted in the HAS's just before the RAF binned the WE-177 in the late 1990s.What does the term TDS relate to??

Well you learn something every day, I didn’t know that.

I was closely associated with the strike role at Laarbruch during Buccaneer days and I cannot recall “TDS” . Any more context?

If it refers to XV Sqn, maybe “Third Division Squadron”😏

Could be Project E related. The USAF had Tactical Depot Squadrons in the 1950's and 1960's.Their role, Storage and maintenance of Nuclear Weapons.

Maybe. They were called Munitions Storage Squadrons by the time I was involved. But I believe RAFG Canberra Squadrons used US nuclear weapons so they would have had US storage units.

I had all the kit, as a Bisley competitor. Accordingly, on an HQ 11Gp callout exercise, I turned up in full Greens, webbing, full water-bottle etc. After the briefing I was ticked off for not wearing a blue shirt and sweater, instead of the green items I was wearing.

Regular Station visits as Exercise DISTAFF and a subsequent MoD (AFD) tour in War Plans and Policy made me decidedly coloured GREEN. The RAF played at War in most environments (exempt air operations) and had to learn some hard lessons.

Timelord and Mainjafad,

You're both on the right track, specifically, TDS 6 had to prepare to evacuate alongside 'Detachment 5' in the event of hostilities. This was at Laarbruch circa 1961. Detachment 5 was the USAF maintenance unit, I think. I'm wondering if TDS 6 was the USAF security detachment, ie, Tactical Deployment Security? This was in connection with the B7 bombs carried by the Canberras?

FB

I seem to remember being told that Bruggen QRA prior to the RAF in the 70’s was manned by the Americans.

Up until the arrival of the Jaguar, the Canberras and Phantoms carried US Bombs. The Americans provided the maintenance and the ultimate level of Security. It was the same at St Mawgan with the nuclear armed Torpedos, this time the US Navy provided the engineers while the a US Marine Corps Security detachment provided a security ring inside the RAF Police one. All were armed.

FB

corrected it for you. One reason for dropping the NDB was the greater kill prob of the Stringray torpedo, not least because an NDB would f*** up acoustic sensors for a long time.

Finningley Boy/NutLoose,

RAFG/2nd TAF Nuclear alert was, in the Canberra, Buccaneer, and Phantom FGR2 era, all RAF as far as aircraft, aircrew and ground crew went, but as the weapons were US supplied, and remained US property, there was a resident US Munitions Detachment on each station that retained custody of the weapons and guarded them accordingly. This meant that when the alert aircraft were loaded with live weapons they too were guarded by armed US sentries at all times. They were VERY hot on the 'no lone zone' regs. I always wondered how the Jaguar coped with these regs as, in theory, the moment the aircraft taxied (which RAFG alert aircraft never did) the pilot should have been shot dead by the sentry if that sentry was sticking to the rules...

Finningley Boy,

RAFG Hunters;
The Hunter F4/F6 fleet in RAFG/2TAF was 100% pure air to air in role, there was no close air support/ground attack/conventional interdiction requirement in Germany at the time, all out nuclear retaliation being the NATO policy up until 1967. It is often forgotten what a change in RAFG the introduction of dual capable Harriers, Phantoms and Buccaneers was. RAFG had NO conventional ground attack ability between the retirement of the Venom FB4 and the introduction of the Phantom/Harrier/Buccaneer generation.

Interestingly, before the 1957 Sandys cuts, there was a tentative plan to equip the ground attack Venom FB4 squadrons with converted Hunter F4's, to be known as Hunter FGA4's, as the air to air Hunter units all gradually re-equipped with F6's.

It was all out nuclear or nothing. Even the RAFG Canberra B(I)6 and B(I) 8 squadrons were pure nuclear, their conventional capability being purely for overseas reinforcement out of area deployments. The other RAFG Hunters, the fighter recce 2 and 4 squadrons, were tiny outfits with an establishment of 9 FR10 and 1 T7 per squadron, meaning that the entire Gutersloh wing was smaller than an average 24 a/c NATO squadron.

The units that supported US Nuclear weapons based in the US and oversea went by various names as time went on. Timelord is correct in that by the time he was involved they were known as Munition Support Squadrons, before that Tactical Depot Squadrons / Tactical Support Squadron and before that Aviation Field Depot Squadrons. The link below covers how the squadrons were set up and the fact that a squadron covered a number of bases with detachments, with what seems to be a specialist Training and Staneval flight that knew what was going on across the whole unit. As the author states, almost everything was extremely compartmentalised, to the point that the security element was separated from the engineering element in the case of unit he was at.

https://usafnukes.com/break-room/bio...d-read-1st-tds

The information about these units on the internet seem to be very limited, however 6th Tactical Depot Squadron seems to be related to weapons supplied to the RAF, not just because of your source (which if I was a betting man would be a TTW operations order out of the annex of the station's F540), but thanks to the unit having a badge that somebody has put on a USAF badge collection page on the net. According to that site, 6th TDS had detachments at Tours in France, plus Marham and Coningsby in the UK. I suspect that the windy cabbage patch is a mistake as according to Wynn's book, RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces, the only RAF stations that actually had US bombs stored at them for the MBF and NATO TBF were Marham, Waddington and Honington. The Bombs for the MBF were actually a major pain for Bomber Command as they couldn't be deployed to the dispersal airfields with the aircraft like the UK owned weapons could. Wynn states that the US bombs were gone from Waddington and Honington by 1962 and from Marham in 1965. I suspect that your document refers to the Detachment 5 as the maintenance personnel (and dependants), while the 6th TDS HQ security were responsible for the guard force (and dependants) who didn't share the same chain of command as the maintenance guys. A guess on my part, but logical one.