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-   -   More info on Astra (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/635500-more-info-astra.html)

heights good 16th Sep 2020 16:24


Originally Posted by Countdown begins (Post 10886574)
If you could correct your poor grammar, people may answer you.
Do not disrespect Bader, that would be cheap and in poor taste.

I will go there.

Not from personal experience but as I understand things, Bader was a horrible man and terrible autocratic leader.

thelizardking 16th Sep 2020 16:45


Originally Posted by Countdown begins (Post 10885686)
I thought ASTRA was just a vanity project! I didn’t realise that it could bring more with less, how cool is that. In 20 years time the RAF will be where it should have been at least two decades ago.
In the meantime I do hope that nobody is caught with their britches down during the next 20 years. That would embarrassing, and would lead to a text book on failed theories for future management courses; a modern day ‘Big Wing’.

The way the RAF is doing 'more with less' is akin to buying 1 tin of paint to paint 1 room, then your wife telling you to paint the whole house but you can't afford to buy more paint so you mix it with water and then throw it at the walls even though as you are doing it you can see it isn't covering the old colours, then you call it 'the new chic' and hope she is stupid enough to believe it.

Willard Whyte 17th Sep 2020 10:20


Originally Posted by Corporal Clott (Post 10885340)
If that is the case then how do you square the loop with 14 different ISR types? I make that Reaper (we don’t own any Protectors yet), Sentry, Shadow, Sentinel, D4K, Islander, RJ and Poseidon. That is 8 - including all marks? If I go tri-Service I can add Crowsnest Merlin. If I really stretch it, then add F35B to make 10. No where near close to 14!

I suppose one could double the number of fleets if they're separated into ones that work and ones that don't, including the slightly amputated E-3 at Waddo.

Martin the Martian 17th Sep 2020 19:08

Perhaps they've included the Nimrod R.1 at Cosford museum?

SLXOwft 18th Sep 2020 18:55

Apologies for intruding into a Light Blue internal discussion. However, some things in the article linked by the OP really struck me.


TRAINING AND ESTATE
“This needs an absolute revolution,” states Air Mshl Turner. With over 5,500 people in some form of school, college or academy, we need to move away from rote learning towards more learning at the front line and more skills taught on-the-job. “We need to move from our current 17.4 percent of our people in some type of training institution to around seven percent.”
I don't like this in my gut but hope they get it right. Am I wrong that there has already been a continuing tendancy to compress classroom training time over the last 40+ years?

I assume he isn't referring to aircrew? For the technicaI trades/professions I trust this wouldn't lead to aircraft and weapons systems being worked on by the unqualified without intensive supervision.:eek:

I grant its a long time since I had direct experience but I have always been struck by the different approach of Annapolis, Colorado Springs and West Point compared to their UK equivalents which seem to be in a rush to produce new officers by comparison.


He notes that the flexibility and remuneration offered by industry needs to be matched if people are to be attracted to the service and retained over the long term. He adds that there also needs to be “a more flexible relationship with industry to allow personnel to move in and out of the organisation, as they will be civil qualified which will make transitions easier. We have called this developing the ‘zig-zag’ career.”
This doesn't actually seem a bad idea to me but I really can't see the money to match remuneration being forthcoming. Presumably there would be a reserve type commitment?


I am very interested in allowing people to be more flexibly employed and move towards a more Full Time Equivalent approach
Could this be managed with pilots? Would it be possible to keep current on both military and civil types? I can see a possible mutual benefit with certain airlines.

Timelord 19th Sep 2020 16:37

I believe it was this project that coined the slogan “Train less- be better” . Good luck squaring that circle! That whirring sound you can hear is Trenchard spinning in his grave.

Visitation 20th Sep 2020 10:16

Turner and ASTRA
 
I agree completely with Easy Street's earlier post. Having been forced to sit through Turner pontificating at Shawshank a few years ago, I came away with the distinct impression that his immense ego and ambition are the main driving forces that produce the numerous visions for unachievable vanity projects that he loves to try and impress everyone with, instead of sensible, pragmatic and achievable solutions. Only the Treasury and the current economic situation will determine how the RAF are resourced and what can subsequently be achieved, no matter how many cloud-nine visions he chooses to generate. He has a track record of having introduced poorly thought through visions that subsequently failed to achieve the desired effect and I confidently predict the ASTRA will only add to this list.

chevvron 21st Sep 2020 06:58


Originally Posted by Martin the Martian (Post 10887492)
Perhaps they've included the Nimrod R.1 at Cosford museum?

Never existed; figment of your imagination.
Would that be the Nimrod type which used to broadcast its route on the Sumburgh Tower frequency when heading north towards the north of Sweden back in 1972?

ACW599 21st Sep 2020 08:17


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 10889479)
Would that be the Nimrod type which used to broadcast its route on the Sumburgh Tower frequency when heading north towards the north of Sweden back in 1972?

Didn't that non-existent aircraft come into non-existent service in mid-1974?

Martin the Martian 21st Sep 2020 09:29


Originally Posted by chevvron (Post 10889479)
Never existed; figment of your imagination.

Ah, so the MAD boom fell off after all!

Willard Whyte 21st Sep 2020 10:53


Originally Posted by SLXOwft (Post 10888109)


Could this be managed with pilots? Would it be possible to keep current on both military and civil types? I can see a possible mutual benefit with certain airlines.

Whether it is still the case I have no idea, but in the past once one was posted away from a particular (military) type one was deemed to be 'non-current' with immediate effect. It would certainly be possible to remain current having left, returning for essential BCRs and the like, but I suspect 'the system' isn't really set up for that sort of thing.

We did experiment with reservists at Lyneham for a short period of time but matching their availability to the tasking was ultimately impossible. I can well remember having a conversation with someone's personal assistant about getting someone to crew a flight, a day trip to and from Europe, only to be asked if we could delay it until the following week when they would have a space in their diary. The only one's who were available tended to be those who'd retired and were at a bit of a loose end - i.e. unemployed or pottering around the garden tending to their petunias whilst waiting for gin-o-clock.

flighthappens 21st Sep 2020 12:37


Originally Posted by Willard Whyte (Post 10889602)
Whether it is still the case I have no idea, but in the past once one was posted away from a particular (military) type one was deemed to be 'non-current' with immediate effect. It would certainly be possible to remain current having left, returning for essential BCRs and the like, but I suspect 'the system' isn't really set up for that sort of thing.

We did experiment with reservists at Lyneham for a short period of time but matching their availability to the tasking was ultimately impossible. I can well remember having a conversation with someone's personal assistant about getting someone to crew a flight, a day trip to and from Europe, only to be asked if we could delay it until the following week when they would have a space in their diary. The only one's who were available tended to be those who'd retired and were at a bit of a loose end - i.e. unemployed or pottering around the garden tending to their petunias whilst waiting for gin-o-clock.

It is done in other Air Forces. RAAF and the US Air National Guard to name two. It can be made to work but obviously there are some challenges depending on the nature of the unit, as well as the personnel commitments required.


Countdown begins 24th Sep 2020 20:43


Originally Posted by flighthappens (Post 10889655)
It is done in other Air Forces. RAAF and the US Air National Guard to name two. It can be made to work but obviously there are some challenges depending on the nature of the unit, as well as the personnel commitments required.

For reservist aircrew, is it much of a cost saving? I’d have thought with abatement etc, but the loss of HDT, it must be exactly the same cost as a regular?

Easy Street 25th Sep 2020 19:16


Originally Posted by Countdown begins (Post 10891874)
For reservist aircrew, is it much of a cost saving? I’d have thought with abatement etc, but the loss of HDT, it must be exactly the same cost as a regular?

It's not about cost saving (well, not directly). Think of it more as a "retention" measure, in that people who've had enough of regular service might be "retained" in cockpits on reservist terms. So more use would be made of that expensive initial training, which today is generally lost to the RAF when someone leaves; a larger force could therefore be sustained. That's the theory, anyway. A possible risk would be regulars stampeding for the exit if they thought they could ditch all the BS and just keep flying...

typerated 25th Sep 2020 20:38


Originally Posted by Easy Street (Post 10892478)
. A possible risk would be regulars stampeding for the exit if they thought they could ditch all the BS and just keep flying...

Might just have to give it time.

And one of these 'leaders' might come up with a radical plan:

Employ a few extra bods for each sqn so aircrew don't drown in BS secondary duties.

Then aircrew are tasked fulltime with flying , study flying and air warfare and preparing themselves mentally and physically for the job.

As a parallel look at professional sport and the understanding of the small differences between winning and losing.

Would a junior pilot on a Typhoon Sqn train the same way as a Manchester United striker?

and if not why not?





ShyTorque 25th Sep 2020 20:43

As someone once said, “Isn’t it a shame that those who know better than everyone else only ever get to cut hair or drive taxis?”

MG 26th Sep 2020 21:53


The company...have poached 3 x blue suits that were desperate for ground tours. Rather than offer respite, the RAF put up barriers and dug pot holes to encourage them to leave
so they didn’t really poach them, did I they? More like welcomed them with open arms.


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