A400M - why the props ?
Having some time for musing I was wondering about the advantages of the turboprop vs. using more conventional turbofans for the A400M.
Designing a completely new engine was obviously a very expensive proposition (and turned out to be even worse than that...) so what are the expected gains ? |
A400M - why the props? Can of worms: check. Opener: check. I’m off to stock up on popcorn now.. |
Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10783519)
Having some time for musing I was wondering about the advantages of the turboprop vs. using more conventional turbofans for the A400M.
Designing a completely new engine was obviously a very expensive proposition (and turned out to be even worse than that...) so what are the expected gains ? Plus, any decent Air Mobility pilot knows that lots of Torques are always better than EPRs. |
1. Because they sound cool
2. Because if it had turbofans it would be a C-2 or KC-390 |
Vin Rouge is right. The propeller can be accelerated more rapidly to produce extra airflow over the wings and lift when flying slowly - an advantage for STOL operations. Noise may also be less with this choice of thrust production. I admit I was surprised to see the A400M had props but on reflection I can see why.
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Originally Posted by Olympia463
(Post 10783618)
Vin Rouge is right. The propeller can be accelerated more rapidly to produce extra airflow over the wings and lift when flying slowly - an advantage for STOL operations. Noise may also be less with this choice of thrust production. I admit I was surprised to see the A440M had props but on reflection I can see why.
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Let's see if I adequately can explain this in non-engineer terms :p
To a first approximation, props are constant power devices, while (pure) jets are constant thrust devices. The relationship is thrust x speed equals power - so the faster you go, the more power a jet produces while the less thrust a prop produces. So, props have better low speed performance (e.g. takeoff), jets have better high speed performance. Modern technology has blurred that difference. High bypass turbofans pretty much split the difference between props and jets - producing adequate low speed performance and good high speed performance, while the latest high speed props provide improved high speed performance while retaining their excellent lower speed performance. But that basic relationship is the same - props are better slow, jets are better fast. Now, that 's all engineering theory. For the specific instance of the A400M, some committee apparently made the decision that the low speed advantages of props were more important than high speed advantages of fan jets. I suspect politics played a role... |
VinRouge:
Plus, any decent Air Mobility pilot knows that lots of Torques are always better than EPRs. |
Jets are for hot tubs, props are for proper aeroplanes....
Hat, Coat, Briefcase, Roller bag, Emergency slide....... |
1. Because they sound cool I didn't need ADS-B Exchange or to go outside to eyeball it to know what it was. The sound is utterly distinctive (and great!) |
I certainly agree about the sound being very distinctive but I guess it was probably not high on the list 😏
I understand the low speed advantage. Is there a way to quantify it? |
Burns half the fuel. That simple.
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Originally Posted by Cat Techie
(Post 10783770)
Burns half the fuel. That simple.
Yes, a prop will typically burn less fuel/mile, but it's nowhere near half. |
The Boeing YC-14 solved the jet/STOL problem eons ago...
The Boeing YC-14 is a twinjet short take-off and landing (STOL) tactical military transport aircraft. It was Boeing's entrant into the United States Air Force's Advanced Medium STOL Transport (AMST) competition, which aimed to replace the Lockheed C-130 Hercules as the USAF's standard STOL tactical transport. |
The earlier iterations of the 'FSTA' were a 4-jet design. The earliest I saw was 'Solution 10'. Over the following years it changed to a 4 prop design, after about another 4 dozen 'solutions'.
The design was more or less fixed, then the fin and tailplane were redesigned and the prop rotation became 'down between engines'. Engine and prop development was....protracted in both software and hardware elements. Single lever power controls with such a wide speed range from max thrust at brake release to idle thrust at max IMN presented huge problems - the 8 blade prop design is ingenious, but far from simple. Turbofans would, on balance, probably have been much simpler. |
It started with fans. Then changed to props. But they forgot to move the horizontal stab.....
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With propellers you can bang it on a dirt airstrip and thump in reverse thrust. Any crap thrown forward and up will be slung away from the engines by the centrifugal forces generated by the props.
Jet engines just hoover it up. |
Why props?
In the words of an ancient Flight Engineer, "How can you feather a hole?"
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Besides, you can't feather a hole!!
Cheers mcdhu |
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver
(Post 10783945)
With propellers you can bang it on a dirt airstrip and thump in reverse thrust. Any crap thrown forward and up will be slung away from the engines by the centrifugal forces generated by the props.
Jet engines just hoover it up. |
In the early 80's when the" Future Large Aircraft" (FLA) was being considered , weren't Un Ducted Fans (UDF) also being developed in the USA and Soviet Union?. Might this approach have the attraction to European Industry of also assisting UDF development costs for an anticipated Civilian Market?
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Could be.
I guess an ATR with two of those (detuned) engines might be an interesting proposition... |
I always thought the RR Dart was a high-bypass unducted fan ;)
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Slight aside, but talking of the engine blue note, there is a weird effect if you stand immediately below one on approach. A few seconds after the a/c passes overhead you get this odd sound effect, difficult to describe but like a threshing sound. No silly jokes please, and no, I wasn't imagining it.
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d_p, I think I've heard this described before and if I remember correctly it is something to do with the interaction of the prop-wash (opposite turning engines)?
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Originally Posted by Green Flash
(Post 10784281)
d_p, I think I've heard this described before and if I remember correctly it is something to do with the interaction of the prop-wash (opposite turning engines)?
How are does birds categorized when it comes to wake turbulence? |
Unductec fans have been put aside because they produce a huge amount of noise, not compatible with EU regulations.
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Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10783519)
Having some time for musing I was wondering about the advantages of the turboprop vs. using more conventional turbofans for the A400M.
Designing a completely new engine was obviously a very expensive proposition (and turned out to be even worse than that...) so what are the expected gains ? And we must not loose sight of the fact that the TP400 is actually a very efficient power plant indeed. |
Originally Posted by dead_pan
(Post 10784261)
Slight aside, but talking of the engine blue note, there is a weird effect if you stand immediately below one on approach. A few seconds after the a/c passes overhead you get this odd sound effect, difficult to describe but like a threshing sound. No silly jokes please, and no, I wasn't imagining it.
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Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10783775)
That used to be the case, but not any more.
Yes, a prop will typically burn less fuel/mile, but it's nowhere near half. |
Why Turbo-props? The Lockheed Hercules comes to mind. To date, more than 2,500 C-130s have been ordered and/or delivered to 63 nations around the world. Seventy countries operate C-130s, which have been produced in more than 70 different variants.
From the highest of air strips in the Himalayas to landing on aircraft carrier runways in the middle of the ocean, the C-130 exceeds expectations. The Hercules has an ability to tackle any mission, anywhere, at any time. It is even a hurricane hunter. I've flown on Viscounts in my youth and my teens. Although I've never flown on a Vanguard, I admired its majestic appearance, large windscreen, big port holes, (same as the Viscount's), and a cruise speed of 360 knots. In the late 1980's, a flight on a combi L-188 Electra, (freight and passenger), re-ignited my appreciation of the efficiency turbo-props. |
Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10784132)
Could be.
I guess an ATR with two of those (detuned) engines might be an interesting proposition... Saab 2000s have AE2100s now that I think about it. |
Originally Posted by Buster15
(Post 10785026)
It was the nation's who defined the specification.
And we must not loose sight of the fact that the TP400 is actually a very efficient power plant indeed. |
Originally Posted by MarkD
(Post 10785558)
if they wanted more power they could just go with PW150s like Bombardier did for the Q400. Instead they seem happy enough pottering along with their PW127s.
Saab 2000s have AE2100s now that I think about it. Given that the AE2100 is already 'detuned' (derated) for it's commercial applications (compared to the C130J), the TP400 would be way too powerful to be useful for a commercial turboprop installation. |
A400M - why the props
Originally Posted by VinRouge
(Post 10783602)
you also get a lot of lift off the prop flow meaning smaller wing area which is useful in austere areas and (may be talking garbage here) the energised flow over the leading edge of the wing means you don’t need leading edge slats, which significantly cuts down on complexity of the design.
Google "AERODYNAMIC DESIGN OF THE A400M HIGH-LIFT SYSTEM" for a paper written by an Airbus engineer (I'm not yet allowed to post links).
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10783665)
So, props have better low speed performance (e.g. takeoff), jets have better high speed performance.
Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10784070)
But in any case, is that capability worth 10bn€ (low ball guestimate) in R&D and many years delay in the program ? Wasn't the only issue but clearly engineering those from scratch was a very risky proposition. I don't see the reward to be commensurate, so I guess there were other matters considered...
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