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Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10493699)
If it looks like a Duck, waddles like a Duck, quacks like a Duck....it might just be a Duck!
Why would Iranians attack a Japanese ship when their PM is in the country? Why would they obviously be at the scene of the crime when they know surveillance drones would be watching their every move? Why would anyone believe a blurry, non specific video as definite proof of anything? I remember some grainy long distance photos were proof of Iraq's supposed WMD's? In this case the "duck" is an American administration with known Iran regime changers Pompeo and Bolton leading the charge who have no qualms about lying to get into a war. Iraq WMD's or Kuwaiti incubator babies come to mind? Even in the off chance that the Iranian government was directly responsible (despite it going against logic), who is going to believe or support them? Nobody. |
You keep repeating yourself post after post.....but never offer any evidence to support your wild conjecture.
Care to enlighten us about why you think as you do? |
From the Times article...
It is assumed Iran does not actually want a war - which would be devastating to it and, if Mr Bolton had his way at least, could well end the Islamic Republic altogether. |
https://www.navy.mil/submit/display....campaign=Fight U.S. CENTCOM Statement on June 13 Limpet Mine Attack in the Gulf of Oman TAMPA (NNS) -- U.S. Naval Forces in the region received two separate distress calls at 6:12 a.m. local time from the motor tanker (M/T) Altair and a second one at 7a.m. local time from the M/T Kokuka Courageous. Both vessels were in international waters in the Gulf of Oman approximately 10 nautical miles apart at the time of the distress calls. USS Bainbridge was approximately 40 nautical miles away from the M/T Altair at the time of the attack, and immediately began closing the distance. At 8:09 a.m. local time a U.S. aircraft observed an IRGC Hendijan class patrol boat and multiple IRGC fast attack craft/fast inshore attack craft (FAC/FIAC) in the vicinity of the M/T Altair. At 9:12 a.m. local time a U.S. aircraft observes the FAC/FIAC pull a raft from the M/T Altair from the water. At 9:26 a.m. local time the Iranians requested that the motor vessel Hyundai Dubai, which had rescued the sailors from the M/T Altair, to turn the crew over to the Iranian FIACs. The motor vessel Hyundai Dubai complied with the request and transferred the crew of the M/T Altair to the Iranian FIACs. At 11:05 a.m. local time USS Bainbridge approaches the Dutch tug Coastal Ace, which had rescued the crew of twenty-one sailors from the M/T Kokuka Courageous who had abandoned their ship after discovering a probable unexploded limpet mine on their hull following an initial explosion. While the Hendijan patrol boat appeared to attempt to get to the tug Coastal Ace before USS Bainbridge, the mariners were rescued by USS Bainbridge at the request of the master of the M/T Kokuka Courageous. The rescued sailors are currently aboard USS Bainbridge. At 4:10 p.m. local time an IRGC Gashti Class patrol boat approached the M/T Kokuka Courageous and was observed and recorded removing the unexploded limpet mine from the M/T Kokuka Courageous (video attached). The U.S. and our partners in the region will take all necessary measures to defend ourselves and our interests. Today's attacks are a clear threat to international freedom of navigation and freedom of commerce. The U.S. and the international community, stand ready to defend our interests, including the freedom of navigation. The United States has no interest in engaging in a new conflict in the Middle East. However, we will defend our interests. Updates can be found on www.centcom.mil, https://twitter.com/CENTCOM, https://www.facebook.com/CENTCOM/ |
Ah, so quite a few inconsistencies and loose ends got tied together in that article. Many thanks, ORAC.
There are several left, however. It has been suggested in the J press for example that as the Kokuka Courageous was Panama flagged, the attackers probably did not know of the Japanese connection. Some Philippino crew members are still insisting on seeing some kind of missile, projectile, or incoming round following the first limpet explosion. (One one level you could say that these were hijacks, Iranian style, for the crews.) |
Combat veterans need to start standing up to inform people about the reality of 21st century warfare.
Maybe if people were more informed then politicians would think twice about trying to set entire countries up for a crime they didn't commit. After all, a more informed electorate has the power to say no to idiots like Bolton. It's amusing to me how absolutely nobody who has served on the ground in direct combat, in Iraq and Afghanistan, wants to see an invasion of Iran. |
Just where do you come up with the idea that Iran is being framed for a crime it did not commit?
Care to show your cards and attempt to convince the rest of us of that notion? |
So if Iran is not responsible, who is ?
Two plus two equals four. |
Since the Saudi King elected to go with the Americans and not the British.....one must consider the possibility of an MI-6 covert action in all this.
Or perhaps the French....as they mined a Green Peace ship in the past. If we are going to entertain wild eyed conspiracies....lets lay them all out for consideration. |
SASless, don't play silly buggers.
Your President's NSA has been fighting with him for a year now to start regime change. The same man wrote a significant percentage of the Iraq dossier in 2003 in the knowledge that the ship for intervening had sailed 12 months prior. He has openly stated, on multiple occasions, that he believes Iran would benefit from regime change. Trump has repeatedly said no. He knows the only way to change the President's mind is to start something. Something like asking Saudi to attack civilian tankers in a covert Op.... maybe. Do you really want your grand kids engaged in another war in the Middle East that is unwinnable? Do you want MY generation to spill the same blood - if not more - that your kids' generation (if you have them) spilled at the beginning of the millennia? I have no moral objection to war but it must first have a purpose that goes beyond making some fat cat shareholder rich. |
Originally Posted by BVRAAM
(Post 10493930)
SASless, don't play silly buggers.
Your President's NSA has been fighting with him for a year now to start regime change. The same man wrote a significant percentage of the Iraq dossier in 2003 in the knowledge that the ship for intervening had sailed 12 months prior. . It takes courage not to start a war when not needed as in discussions with North Korea. It is on record that US made overtures to Syria that they would stop supporting Al Qaeda / IS as long as in reconstruction projects the US Contractors got preferrential terms. Assad decided that he would not ban them but no preferential treatment, deal never happened. Not unsurprisingly he had a problem with the word of ANY US official given how easily it gets broken. |
BVRAAM and Racedo.....do you understand the difference between the NSA, CIA, and State Department...their areas of responsibilities and mandate under Federal Law?
It would appear you do not. Next thing you know you will be blaming us for your own Regime Change that is going on extant. It seems the UK and the USA are saying it was the Iranians who have attacked the Tankers....even the Guardian is reporting that....and for you two that must be the final word on it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-tanker-attack |
Photos of Iranian limpet mines....... https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a07d946f8.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5802591bb.jpeg |
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mi...-idUKKCN1TF1I4 Blast-hit Kokuka tanker being towed towards UAE - operator DUBAI (Reuters) - The Kokuka Courageous, one of two tankers attacked with explosives on Thursday in the Gulf of Oman, is now safely under tow and heading towards the United Arab Emirates’ port of Kalba, south of Fujairah, the ship’s operator said on Friday. Bernhard Schulte Ship management, updated an earlier statement that had said the ship was heading to the port of Khor Fakkan. A company official said the ship had been rerouted because of congestion in both Khor Fakkan and Fujairah. Earlier, the Dutch marine engineering firm Boskalis said it had been appointed to salvage the vessel and the other tanker, the Front Altair, operated by Frontline. “The Kokuka Courageous is stable. Full damage assessments will be carried out, but there is no danger of her sinking and there is no loss of cargo or fuel containment,” the statement said. http://www.seatrade-maritime.com/new...ourageous.html SMIT appointed as salvors for tankers Front Altair and Kokuka Courageous SMIT Salvage has been awarded the contract to salvage both the Front Altair and the Kokuka Courageous that were attacked in the Gulf of Oman on Thursday. Shortly after the incidents insurers for both vessels appoint the Royal Boskalis Westminster subsidiary as salvors for the ships and their cargoes. The two vessels were hit by explosions and fire resulting the evacuation of the crews. In the case of aframax Front Altair, Boskalis described the situation with its cargo of naphtha as “still worrisome”. “The crew was able to safely leave the ship and the fire was extinguished yesterday afternoon. A salvage team was flown in to execute the salvage operation on site with accompanying specialist equipment,” Boskalis said. As previously reported by managers Bernhard Schulte Shipmanagement the Kokuka Courageous is stable and under tow. “Here too the crew was able to safely leave the vessel after which the ship was stabilized. A towing connection was successfully established yesterday afternoon and the crew was able to return to the vessel. The vessel is currently being towed to a port in the Gulf region,” Boskalis said. |
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Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10494031)
BVRAAM and Racedo.....do you understand the difference between the NSA, CIA, and State Department...their areas of responsibilities and mandate under Federal Law?
It would appear you do not. The deliberate killing of US citizens, spying on US Citizens without a warrant in the US, etc etc has all been going on. Get out for the agencies is that it was not them doing it but a 3rd party private contractor or a "friendly" ally. The friendly ally who then supplied the information, they "alledgedly" were looking at something else and found something. As for regime change in the US, the censorship that is currently going on its only the tip of it. They tried to fix 2016 election and it failed, then then went down the route of "Russia" interfered and laughingly Congress found that RT.Com had spent less than $100k promoting stories on Google / Twitter. Facebook / Twitter / Google / Pininterest have all been caught ensuring anybody who has a voice that the Liberal elite do not like is to be shut down. They are to be the judges of what is acceptable. They are media companies who openly discriminate based on colour and race and then claim it is targeting consumers. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10494245)
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..after all - would Corbyn side with another of Israel's enemies or not?
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Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10494031)
BVRAAM and Racedo.....do you understand the difference between the NSA, CIA, and State Department...their areas of responsibilities and mandate under Federal Law?
It would appear you do not. Next thing you know you will be blaming us for your own Regime Change that is going on extant. It seems the UK and the USA are saying it was the Iranians who have attacked the Tankers....even the Guardian is reporting that....and for you two that must be the final word on it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-tanker-attack Now please don't try to dodge my point. No, The Guardian isn't my source of information. I am not a lefty or a liberal, but equally I am not an imperialist idiot. |
They have one of the quietest submarines in the world built by the Russians, where they could have struck a tanker with a high chance of nobody knowing... but instead they decide to place and then remove above-water level mines in full view, while being filmed by a UCAV?
It doesn't add up. I'd bet a year's salary that Iranian Special Forces did NOT plant or remove those mines. |
I for one couldn't understand why they would target a Japanese vessel while hosting the countries PM, not exactly the way to cement future relationships. |
Strange that Corbyn can’t even tell us whether he’s for or against Brexit yet he can find time to speak up in favour of Iran’s peaceful intentions. |
Digression: Corbyn is for Brexit in the north, and remain in the south
Simples. |
Originally Posted by dook
(Post 10493908)
So if Iran is not responsible, who is ?
Two plus two equals four. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10494340)
I for one couldn't understand why they would target a Japanese vessel while hosting the countries PM, not exactly the way to cement future relationships. |
Rogue actors, whether ‘Iran’s Other Government’ or whoever, are IMO unlikely to explore Google to find who owns what. ‘They’ just desire impact and chaos. |
Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 10494463)
Rogue actors, whether ‘Iran’s Other Government’ or whoever, are IMO unlikely to explore Google to find who owns what. ‘They’ just desire impact and chaos. |
Who profits from this attack.....
I suspect the Saudis - there is NO benefit to Iran, it's too amateurish for the Israelis or US intelligence I'd like to see some more of the "clear evidence" that it was Iranian - some pictures/radar tracks showing Iranian based fast craft hauling alongside these tankers at (?at night?) and placing mines on them. Damn hard to do with frogmen if they are underway The fact that the Iranians were quickly on the scene is no surprise - they are the closest coastline and according to the USN timeline it was over an hour from the first Mayday to them arriving |
Actually looking at the height of the "limpet mine" above the water and the report of "missiles" by one of the crew I wonder if we're looking at a drone attack here??
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10494340)
I for one couldn't understand why they would target a Japanese vessel while hosting the countries PM, not exactly the way to cement future relationships. |
Why did the Iranians attempt to shoot down the Reaper Drone that responded to the vessels after the attack on them?
The vessels were in International waters thus the Drone was as well. Why was the crew of the one tanker detained by the Iranians? What is it the Iranians are trying to hide? Why did the Iranians put out a propaganda video declaring they had sunk Israeli and American vessels? Why do you not question the Iranians and hold them to the same standard you do the Americans? |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10494897)
Why did the Iranians attempt to shoot down the Reaper Drone that responded to the vessels after the attack on them?
Prior it appears plus a drone coming close to a naval vessel will get shot down / warned off. USN will do the same thing. Opposite site of "A" story is US drone was providing targeting info for someone else to attack the tankers and there to photgraph it. Are US drones following "every" tanker that is transiting Straits of Hormuz or is it very selective based on direct orders from eleswhere. Would be interesting on seeing where the paper trail is leading. The vessels were in International waters thus the Drone was as well. USS Sides and Vincennes saw same data, one had a competent crew who understood their duty, the other didn't and shot down a civilian airliner. Iranian drone operating in international waters close to a US Naval vessel will get treated as hostile, should same not apply on opposite sides ? Why was the crew of the one tanker detained by the Iranians? What is it the Iranians are trying to hide? Why did the Iranians put out a propaganda video declaring they had sunk Israeli and American vessels? Why do you not question the Iranians and hold them to the same standard you do the Americans? I do and look at their motives. Someone is intent on getting a shooting match started. US Def Sec and Sec of State are the ones egging it on in recent weeks with Israel and Saudi's seeking an attack on Iran and openly requesting it. Yet seemingly everybody has to believe that Iran wants it to start. |
I do and look at their motives. Someone is intent on getting a shooting match started. US Def Sec and Sec of State are the ones egging it on in recent weeks with Israel and Saudi's seeking an attack on Iran and openly requesting it. Trump has clearly stated he wishes to have substantive negotiations with the Iranians and even asked the Japanese PM to encourage them to do so. How is that calling for War? |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10495081)
You seem to be reading very different news sources than I am re these Tanker attacks...all four of them.
Trump has clearly stated he wishes to have substantive negotiations with the Iranians and even asked the Japanese PM to encourage them to do so. How is that calling for War? Trump has been very clear that he doesn't seek a war, I believe him which is why the Deep State hate him. Pompeo and Bolton have been very clear they wish for a war, be it in Venezuala, Iran or anywhere else and yes I would firmly believe they would conspire to get US into a war in whatever way possible. You know from when you served that Navy / Marines / Air Force / Army struggled to coordinate things because each had different agenda and plans. This is exactly the same at Govt level but the implications can be even worse for decades after. In Russia if something happens then Putin seemingly ordered it, Iran it was Ayatollah but seemingly in US / UK etc then it wasn't the President / PM but someone else. Fact is most leaders don't have a clue what people are getting up to and rely on being briefed properly but military / intel are quite happy to lie to their back teeth until they caught. Current National leaders wouldn't be first to have to rely on the media for information because the way it gets sanitised and blocked at verious stages of the bureaucracy. |
Maybe we should look a bit further into world/area interest in this region and the benefits/losses that could occur if there is a full confrontation in the Gulf. I worked there for many years including
in the maritime recce. role, (was there at the time of the Vincennes incident and I mean there, about 100' and 6-8 miles away) and have to say ( only my own opinion,) that I was not impressed with the actions/ radio of the USN.! There appears to be too many queries/doubts as to these incidents to apportion blame at this stage. The Iranian military (?) are far more sophisticated than appears in these reports! Not anti-American, worked there as well and have much admiration for them! Bill |
Even the crew of the Vincennes were ashamed of their actions that day.
If in doubt of that....watch the video and see their reaction when they realized the "Threat" was a civilian airliner they had shot down. Mistakes happen for many reasons and far too many innocent folks get harmedt when that happens. I am sure the US Navy learned some very bitter lessons from that tragedy. One must recall the earlier successful attack on a US warship not all that long before the Vincennes Incident. For sure someone is intent upon causing chaos and heightened tensions in the area and have succeeded somewhat. If and when they get found out there shall be a heavy price to pay for these four attacks. That does not excuse what happened but does help in describing the environment the ship was operating in.....the Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman are dangerous places due to the hostile relationships of so many countries in the Region. |
SASless,
Thanks for quick reply, I have no arguements with any of your comments, however, I was well aware of the environment that I was operating in - I had been doing it for 10 years!! (with three crew and some good kit) and we were all aware of the political situation at the time Rightly or wrongly I still have the feeling that there is somewhat more to this latest *** (call it what you wish!!!) than meets the eye (or the eye of the press) and the politicians (leaders??) Bill |
Material left behind after what the US said was the removal of an unexploded limpet mine.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11...x2-940x627.jpg Blast damage on the Kokuka Courageous. https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11...x2-940x627.jpg https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11...x2-940x627.jpg https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11...x2-940x627.jpg https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...?section=world |
Amazingly from the pictures the boat is there for over 1 hour removing a mine, knowing full well that they will be photegraphed, other ships will come alongside and without reference to the outcome if said device exploded.
But then again it may have been a dummy placed there with a plan for it not to go off to show the world a picture certain people wanted. Strange how with all that camera equipment and surveillance they were not able to spot the boat that the people who placed it were on. Assumming tanker was making 10-12 knots then would have needed to be a reasonably fast and competent team to have done it without anybody spotting it twice on same ship. Unless it was always a dummy and the ships crews crew who reported a "missile" / drone attack were the ones who called it right. |
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