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-   -   ALARM (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/620181-alarm.html)

gliderkev 4th Apr 2019 21:46

ALARM
 
I'm watching an episode of "Air Warriors" about electronic warfare, and I remember that the RAF at one time used a missile called Alarm.
is it still in use? If not, can anyone tell me wether it was good, bad or indifferent?

LincsFM 4th Apr 2019 21:57

It was very unreliable as it kept going off at the wrong time!

MAINJAFAD 4th Apr 2019 23:28

I think the rocket motors in the ones the RAF had were most likely Life-ex and there was no money to replace them (seeing that the average life of one is around 12 years) and the Mk 2 version came out in the early 2000's it would be a good bet. RAF canned it in 2013. Saudis were still using it around 4 years ago.

Marcantilan 5th Apr 2019 01:01

ALARM? It rings me a bell...

ORAC 5th Apr 2019 07:00

These things tend to hang around........

Exrigger 5th Apr 2019 07:10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALARM


Easy Street 5th Apr 2019 09:23


can anyone tell me wether it was good, bad or indifferent?
Weapon performance remains a sensitive topic even after withdrawal from service so you won’t (or at least, shouldn’t) get much of an answer on here, certainly on trial data. What I will say is that assessing its effectiveness on live operations was very difficult: as a long-ranged and quite slow-acting missile it did its business well out of sight, and no-one wanted to hang around near air defence systems to see what it was up to. If no-one got shot down while an ALARM was in the air, was that because it scared the SAM operators into turning their radars off, or destroyed the radar, or simply because no-one would have been shot down anyway? A great imponderable. HARM was/is different in that regard because it did/does its business quickly (the clue is in the name...) and so is perhaps easier to correlate a shot with an outcome. Enough said I feel.

NutLoose 5th Apr 2019 09:43


can anyone tell me whether it was good, bad or indifferent?
It was a bit hit and miss.. :)

Martin the Martian 5th Apr 2019 12:26

Either way, what do we use now to do the job, seeing as the RAF's offensive weaponry consists of Brimstone, Storm Shadow and Paveway IV?

gliderkev 5th Apr 2019 12:31

Thanks for the replies. I understand the sensitivity, and I was aware of its loitering capability, just didnt know why it wasnt kept on if it was effective.

Davef68 5th Apr 2019 12:43


Originally Posted by Martin the Martian (Post 10439708)
Either way, what do we use now to do the job, seeing as the RAF's offensive weaponry consists of Brimstone, Storm Shadow and Paveway IV?

Other people's missiles

Just This Once... 5th Apr 2019 12:59

The 'loitering' capability under the 'chute really drove the design of the weapon. Getting a burnable chute out of the back of rocket motor was quite a trick. The warhead also had to be quite nasty to achieve effects from a missile that was designed not to directly hit the emitter.

Arguably its best feature was when used in tandem with HARM capable aircraft, giving the SAM crews quite a complicated picture. Add in the odd LO platform and some jamming, both stand-off and stand-in and the overall effect was rather good.

The worst feature, especially when not operating in a mixed package was the speed of the thing. More of a SARM than a HARM, to the point that it was easy to arrive over the target well before the missile you fired earlier.


As ever, no comments on the EW side as those elements live on even after the demise of the missile.

RHINO 5th Apr 2019 15:23

From memory.....it is a long time ago! The first packages went in with the ALARM aircraft at the front however all this did was alert the locals as the rockets came off the aircraft that there were inbounds. So we modified the packages and the ALARM aircraft went down the back and fired from there.

Lonewolf_50 5th Apr 2019 20:17


Originally Posted by LincsFM (Post 10439162)
It was very unreliable as it kept going off at the wrong time!

suggestion: visit urologist or marriage counselor, as appropriate. :E

TwoTunnels 6th Apr 2019 20:10

Weren't the RAF Tornado F3s rebranded as EF3s for a short while?

Rhino power 6th Apr 2019 21:54


Originally Posted by TwoTunnels (Post 10441006)
Weren't the RAF Tornado F3s rebranded as EF3s for a short while?

Not all F.3s, 11 Sqn trialled ALARM for a short period (12 months or so?), the results were impressive, or so it has been said, with the F.3s standard RHAW kit being well up to job of the SEAD mission...

-RP

pr00ne 8th Apr 2019 08:57

Davef68,

"..​​​​​​what do we use now to do the job, seeing as the RAF's offensive weaponry consists of Brimstone, Storm Shadow and Paveway IV?"


I guess we use Brimstone, Storm Shadow and Paveway IV...

cokecan 8th Apr 2019 10:55

there's long been talk of using a version of METEOR as a very high speed ARM. how much could be achieved by using OTS componants in the style of SPEAR CAP 2 to 3 is a matter for technical discussion, but there appears to be an acceptance at a political level that SPEAR CAP 3 isn't the answer. part of the answer, but its not enough.

BVRAAM 9th Apr 2019 04:36

Since it's retired now, does anybody know its max range?

I understand the answer to that would be a "no comment" if it was still in use.... so you don't know if you don't ask!

Exrigger 9th Apr 2019 06:55

According to the Wiki link I provided earlier, the operational range is quoted as: 93 Kilometres (58 miles)
Don't have any idea as to the veracity of Wiki in this matter.

Easy Street 9th Apr 2019 07:38

BVRAAM,

Open source data such as that found in Wiki are all you’ll get (or again, should get!). One very good reason for continuing to protect such data after a piece of kit is retired is that the data could serve to prove the credibility of sources who may have leaked information while the kit was still in service. As those sources may still be active then there is a clear imperative to avoid corroborating their earlier tales. Or, indeed, to avoid exposing sources of deliberate misinformation!

BVRAAM 9th Apr 2019 08:28

Easy Street, I understand. Thanks.

Your latter point is what I suspect - I can't see any truth to it being 93km - an ex-Weasel told me himself that the idea of SEAD is to fly high, slow (within cornering speed) and letting the system know you're coming so you can send a shot straight down the radar beam's centreline which requires getting in close and within SAM range, so it's highly likely that 93K figure is deliberately inaccurate.

I won't ask anything else on this subject.

Easy Street 9th Apr 2019 12:00


Originally Posted by BVRAAM (Post 10443065)
Your latter point is what I suspect - I can't see any truth to it being 93km - an ex-Weasel told me himself that the idea of SEAD is to fly high, slow (within cornering speed) and letting the system know you're coming so you can send a shot straight down the radar beam's centreline which requires getting in close and within SAM range, so it's highly likely that 93K figure is deliberately inaccurate.

With respect to the ex-Weasel, ALARM was a very different beast to the weapons he would have used. As mentioned by others above, ALARM had loitering and other modes that did not need the SAM to be provoked into action immediately. Hence most of the tactics and effective ranges bore little resemblance to those used with HARM and its predecessors.

Just This Once... 9th Apr 2019 13:01

As covered earlier, the differences between HARM and ALARM could not be greater when things like range are considered. When you have a weapon suspended under a 'chute things like winds aloft become a key factor, with canopy drift vs sensor regard vs altitude vs reducing ballistic reach et al.

newt 9th Apr 2019 17:29

​​​​​I was the desk officer in Operational Requirements for Alarm many moons ago! It was early days for defence suppression! There was a competition for the contract and to beat Texas Instruments with Harm, British Aerospace designed all sorts of extras into it! A two stage motor and the loiter capability for instance! Needless to say, M Thatcher thought the contract should go to a U.K. company! On her insistence, it was the very first Fixed Price Contract with British Aerospace! It was some months before they admitted that the motor was a problem! Eventually, as I recall, the contract came in at twice the price and took twice as long before delivery! Just thought you might be interested! Needless to say, M Thatcher was not impressed and my director had to fend off some flack from Number Ten!

BVRAAM 9th Apr 2019 18:43

ALARM seems more capable than HARM then in certain situations!

It's a role I find very interesting; it sounds like great fun!

ORAC 9th Apr 2019 19:04

Now of course you do it with drones. A small swarm to loiter in the area in orbit for several hours, just waiting for the radar to go active.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Harop

BVRAAM 9th Apr 2019 19:25


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10443604)
Now of course you do it with drones. A small swarm to loiter in the area in orbit for several hours, just waiting for the radar to go active.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Harop

That thing belongs in a movie!

ORAC 9th Apr 2019 20:04

Oh, that nothing compared to what’s in the pipeline.....


E-Spy 9th Apr 2019 20:51


Originally Posted by BVRAAM (Post 10443589)
ALARM seems more capable than HARM then in certain situations!

It's a role I find very interesting; it sounds like great fun!

Fun? Look up the origins of YGBSM!

AR1 9th Apr 2019 21:49

Some very early ALARM action in Michael Napiers operational history of the Tornado. Worth a read for the GW1 section alone.


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